Need help getting 15 yr old to complete 2nd Class rank swim requirement

[Col. Flagg]

I view a facemask or nose plug as an accomodation. Goggles, not so much.  Why?  There is no difference in terms of breathing, etc. with or without goggles. There is a difference between swimming with a mask/nose plugs than without.  

 

Again, where in the RANK requirements does it say these are prohibited? 

[Stosh]

And when all is said and done, a class-A swimmer doing snorkeling in the BWCA waters that ends up in the hospital with Giardia is yet another issue altogether.  Swimming in a pool lessons the possibility of contamination, freak factors and with goggles and aids the boy might pass with flying colors.  But in real life, that boy isn't going to be wearing goggles when he's fishing from a row boat, canoeing or kayaking, and he won't be doing any of those things in a pool.

 

Does anyone other than myself think this whole discussion is based on fuzzy logic?  A boy can swim only if he's in a pool and can wear ear plugs, goggles and nose pinches?  Does that really make him a swimmer?  What happens when the catamaran tips over in the lake and he gets dumped?  He'll have a life-jacket on, but will he be a swimmer?  If he's in a canoe fishing and it capsizes when at a non-scouting event and he was using the life-jacket (which is not required by law to be worn) as a seat cushion, is he a swimmer?

 

How many what-if's is it going to take to really test these boys as to whether or not they can actually swim well enough to save their life?

[TAHAWK]

I see two issues.

 

1. Some believe their additions to the language of the requirement out to control.  They reason that their interpretation controls over the words written by BSA.  

 

BUT

 

2. BSA does not provide a routine method of securing official interpretations.  Such a method is needed because BSA often writes unclearly.

[Col. Flagg]

 

How many what-if's is it going to take to really test these boys as to whether or not they can actually swim well enough to save their life?

 

Wrong discussion. We are talking about passing the swim test for rank advancement, not Lifesaving MB or Swimming MB. If you want to talk about those, then I fully agree mastery of swimming is required.

 

For the rank advancement, the litmus test to pass is MUCH lower. I have seen guys who have passed the test but they are not really "Swimmers". Passing the test is no certification of one's swimming ability. It is a one-time test for rank. We should not equate passing the swim test for rank = being a great swimmer, no more than we should equate passing the cooking requirements to being a great cook.

 

This is a point-in-time test, folks. Nothing more.

[Stosh]

Not really.  These tests are conducted annually and whether or not one can pass the test determines much of the activities one is allowed in the BSA program.  Sure, the rank test is one thing to consider.  My boys take the test every 6 months.  Once in the dead of winter at a pool and again at summer camp.  Either test garners the check mark in the box for rank.  But before I take my boys out for some white-water canoeing or kayaking, they had better do more than just swim 4 laps in a pool.

[TAHAWK]

The topic was passing Second Class.  Change the topic and you change the answer.

[Col. Flagg]

Not really.  These tests are conducted annually and whether or not one can pass the test determines much of the activities one is allowed in the BSA program.  Sure, the rank test is one thing to consider.  My boys take the test every 6 months.  Once in the dead of winter at a pool and again at summer camp.  Either test garners the check mark in the box for rank.  But before I take my boys out for some white-water canoeing or kayaking, they had better do more than just swim 4 laps in a pool.

 

Depends, @Stosh. I had a large number of kids who never took the swim test at camp simply because they had no intention of hitting the lake.

[Stosh]

Depends, @Stosh. I had a large number of kids who never took the swim test at camp simply because they had no intention of hitting the lake.

 

And how does that prepare them for real life?  Just because they don't do water activities at camp, should they not be trained to handle a water emergency when involved in a non-scouting activity?

 

Too often we are so focused we loose sight that what we are doing in scouting is not for the promotion and continuance of scouting or getting rank bling, it's getting the boys ready for life.  If Grandpa is out fishing with his grandson and the boy falls overboard, what can Grandpa do?  I train my boys to be prepared for such a situation and hope and pray they never have to put it into practice.  Every check box I mark in a boy's handbook is premised with, does he know it well enough to be able to use it in real life?

[Col. Flagg]

And how does that prepare them for real life?  Just because they don't do water activities at camp, should they not be trained to handle a water emergency when involved in a non-scouting activity?

 

I would argue the goal (of passing the swim test for rank) is not to prepare them for real life. No more than cooking, first aid or map.compass requirements for rank are designed to make the boys "experts" in those skills.

 

Once they pass, how often have you found guys never using THOSE skills again (besides during MBs)?

 

I don't disagree that swimming, and other core skills, are life skills they should master. I thought the argument was what is required to pass rank, no?

[Stosh]

The aim of the BSA program for me is to develop boys into knowledgeable and resourceful men.  Planning a trip for the scouts needs to be a precursor for planning a family trip to Disney World.  Cooking is not just for them, but the family he might have as an adult.  Kids get hurt?  Does he know the basics of first aid?  Grandpa takes a tumble down the steps, can he help or just stand around and watch?

 

BSA puts these skill requirements out there for a reason other than box checking and bling awards.  I guess in spite of all the interpretations out there on these things, the under lying consideration I have in my mind is "Why are they having to learn these things?"  If it's only to get a rank award, then go ahead and check the box and don't worry about it.  Otherwise, consider the consequences of that checked box.  Am I doing this boy a disservice by not taking it seriously?

 

By the way @Col. Flagg,  just putting an @ in front of a name does not tag it.  You can either go the programmatic way and type out [member="Col. Flagg" (I left out the second "bracket" at the end so it would not convert) or just go to the upper menu, click on the icon just to the left of the Font box and it will give you a pull down menu.  Select "Member" and then type in the name on the next line presented.  It will format it for you.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Stosh

[WisconsinMomma]

Perhaps passing rank is a stepping stone in the skill building journey.  It doesn't end there. 

 

Personally, I'm not all that worried about a kid falling out of a boat on a fishing trip with an adult and wearing a PFD, but it depends on the fishing trip, the body of water, and the weather, right?   You know what scares me?  Falling through the ice. That's very dangerous, and to my knowledge, there's nothing in Scouting that really covers surviving that kind of accident. Scouting can't be everything.  It's a foundation and a beginning.

 

In my adult life, I don't go on the water much, not even once a year, only every couple years.  I swam a lot as a kid but don't know my current swimming endurance level, to be honest. It's been years! Could I swim for my life?  Falling out of a boat with a PFD?  Absolutely, yes.  Could I survive under all conditions?  Of course not, we are all human.  

 

I will be pleased when my sons can pass their first class swim tests and then we'll see where their interests take them. 

[Stosh]

You're from Wisconsin and you haven't learned the 5 second lesson on going through the ice?

 

Don't be the first one on the ice!!!"

 

[Stosh]

Second lesson for Wisconites:  When hiking, always hike with someone who can't run as fast as you.

 

How did you survive this long without these basic lessons.

 

 

I'm from Wisconsin, too.

[TAHAWK]

It is not an outdoors skills-building program.  It's a character, citizenship, fitness-building program that uses limited skills education as an occasion to develop confidence in the ability to learn and overcome challenges.  But you know that.  We all do. It's just easy to get so wrapped up in the skills part that we lose sight of the objectives.

[David CO]

You know what scares me?  Falling through the ice. That's very dangerous, and to my knowledge, there's nothing in Scouting that really covers surviving that kind of accident.  

 

I learned ice rescues at YMCA. Only had to use it once, when a father and his 8 year old son went through the ice in Lake Geneva.