Need help getting 15 yr old to complete 2nd Class rank swim requirement

[fred johnson]

Here's one: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/council368/General/BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf from 2007.

It looks like it is not in the new National version.

It is in some council description of the swim test.

I suspect this is because someone might split hairs about what constitutes an aid.

 

I agree.  The "constitutes an aid" is unclear.  It's also not part of the "requirement".   It's part of the clarification.  

 

IMHO, the 2007 G2SS clarified the "aid" in the next sentence.  "Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, and gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement."   It also appears in the changing direction section where it is "without any push off or other aid".  

 

I just don't see a Facemask as a big accommodation.  It's similar to eye googles or a nose plug.   

 

 

ON THE GOOD SIDE !!!! ... I really wish BSA had more documents like what we see in G2SS and a few others where they parse the statements given to the scout for the adult leaders and staff.  Then, they give clarifying explanations for the adults / staff to use to interpret the statements.  IMHO, I think this should be done for ALL BSA requirements.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by fred johnson

[TAHAWK]

The Second Class swimming requirement is: Demonstrate your ability to pass the BSA beginner test: Jump feetfirst into water over your head in depth, level off and swim 25 feet on the surface, stop, turn sharply, resume swimming, then return to your starting place.

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/Second_Class_rank_2016.pdf

  

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/03/10/ask-the-expert-what-if-my-scout-cant-compete-the-first-class-swim-test/

[DuctTape]

I have no issue with a facemask or earplugs, etc... However if one needs a facemask for the swim test, then it follows that the mask must be worn all the time whenever "pass the swim test" is a requisite.

[clemlaw]

Who says you can't use a face mask ?  I'm very much for learning how to swim, but there is flexibility.  IMHO, I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a face mask.  IMHO, it's a similar allowance to allowing someone to pass the swimming test in a indoor heated clean pool.  Otherwise, it would be best to test swimming ability in murky green stagnant lake water with small fish nibbling at your leg hair on a cold windy day.  If we allow clean indoor pool water, I see the facemask as a minor accommodation.  

 

I was just going by what others said before me.  My point is that, IMHO, holding your nose and holding your breath works better than any mask I've ever used.  And I don't see how anyone could object to doing that (other than that it makes you look silly, which hasn't stopped me.) :-)

[qwazse]

I have no issue with a facemask or earplugs, etc... However if one needs a facemask for the swim test, then it follows that the mask must be worn all the time whenever "pass the swim test" is a requisite.

That's where it starts getting nutty. Do we make such a "swimmer" bring a face-mask on a pontoon boat ride? Keep it in his backpack in case we stop at a safe swim area? What if he swims to a floating dock, then drops the mask? The masks fogs and he has to take it off?

 

Or, do we tell the kid, "Let's not pass you right now. But, let's you and me commit to time in the non-swimmers area until you'll be prepared to comfortably go without that mask."

 

What's on that smiley-shaped ribbon floating in that pretty oval patch? It's not "Be Aided".

[WisconsinMomma]

My two sons in Scouting are taking individual swim lessons with an instructor who is a BSA Swimming merit badge counselor.  The boys swim at our fitness center pool with goggles.  Both boys were able to complete requirements for their beginner swimmer, and are working on their endurance for the regular swimmer designation.  At this time, neither boy wishes to swim at camp, they do other things.  It working for us, for now. 

 

Love the idea to teach the boy who is afraid to jump in to hold his nose and shut his eyes.  Hope the boy is able to set his goals and achieve them with support from his Troop. 

[Col. Flagg]

That is the exact text of the BSA swim test.  

 

Here is the rank requirement:

6a. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/First_Class_rank_2016.pdf

 

I quoted the Safe Swimmer requirements for the BSA swimmer test.  

 

But the REQUIREMENTS for the rank do not say anything about aids such as goggles. We don't read every ancillary BSA book for every requirement, do we? 

 

If it is not in the requirements, or on the safe swim defense webpage, who is going to go buy yet another BSA book which contradicts 3-4 other sources??

 

I'm passing any kid who can meet the requirements as written; whether in a lake, pool or water park.

[qwazse]

... I'm passing any kid who can meet the requirements as written; whether in a lake, pool or water park.

And I'm passing any who can meet the reqs with or without ancillary gear.

How do I know they they can pass it without ancillary gear? I have them demonstrate it that way!

 

It might be a bit of an assumption that if they pass without a dive mask, that they could pass it with, but that's not a problem. Because once a kid's a swimmer, his most likely trajectory is to try using different swim/snorkeling gear.

Edited November 8, 2017 by qwazse

[Stosh]

The kid that relies on goggles will quickly learn that they aren't needed when he rolls the kayak or canoe.  Well, unless he stands up and jumps in feet first to start with. 

[Back Pack]

And I'm passing any who can meet the reqs with or without ancillary gear.

How do I know they they can pass it without ancillary gear? I have them demonstrate it that way!

 

It might be a bit of an assumption that if they pass without a dive mask, that they could pass it with, but that's not a problem. Because once a kid's a swimmer, his most likely trajectory is to try using different swim/snorkeling gear.

Do you require them to pass without goggles? I agree with the others that denying them goggles is adding to the requirements.

[qwazse]

Do you require them to pass without goggles? I agree with the others that denying them goggles is adding to the requirements.

Answered in an earlier post - situational based on sensitivity to chemicals in the water. My apologies if that makes hair-splitters squirm.

 

Bottom line: the kid's gonna get a patch with the phrase "Be Prepared" emblazoned across its width. If you are sure he will be prepared to jump in and swim strongly whenever the need arises, you're not adding to the requirements. If there's a doubt or reservation, doling out a pass is taking away from the requirements. It's just that simple.

[perdidochas]

Yeah, that's one of the trouble with BSA.  BSA has many things documented in multiple places in slightly different ways.

 

"without any aids" does not exist in the key documents I've looked at.

 

BSA Scouting.org - "ADMINISTRATION OF SWIM CLASSIFICATION TEST" - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor%20program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf

 

BSA Scouting.org - "Safe Swim Defense" - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/Aquatics/safe-swim.aspx

 

Both give the test details and do not contain "without any aids".  

 

I don't doubt you found one that says "without any aids".  Where did you find yours?  

 

Please note ... The link you gave just says pass the swim test.  Both of the above two links describe the swim test.  

I'm not a rules lawyer.  Common sense tells me that a swim test should be without aids.  I'm not going to sign anybody off as a swimmer who can't swim without aids. that said, I don't view goggles as an aid.  I do view a mask as an aid. the difference--whether or not the nose is covered. There is no essential difference between swimming with goggles and swimming without.  Swimming with a mask is easier, due to the mask closing the nose off.  

Edited November 9, 2017 by perdidochas

[Back Pack]

The requirements only say what to do. Not what type of water, conditions or anything else. If he wants to do it in a pool he should be allowed. If anyone insists it be done in a lake that’s adding requirements. If they deny him using goggles that’s adding requirements.

[perdidochas]

And I'm passing any who can meet the reqs with or without ancillary gear.

How do I know they they can pass it without ancillary gear? I have them demonstrate it that way!

 

It might be a bit of an assumption that if they pass without a dive mask, that they could pass it with, but that's not a problem. Because once a kid's a swimmer, his most likely trajectory is to try using different swim/snorkeling gear.

A dive mask is a different thing than goggles. A dive mask covers the nose. The goggles don't.  

[perdidochas]

I agree.  The "constitutes an aid" is unclear.  It's also not part of the "requirement".   It's part of the clarification.  

 

IMHO, the 2007 G2SS clarified the "aid" in the next sentence.  "Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, and gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement."   It also appears in the changing direction section where it is "without any push off or other aid".  

 

I just don't see a Facemask as a big accommodation.  It's similar to eye googles or a nose plug.   

 

 

ON THE GOOD SIDE !!!! ... I really wish BSA had more documents like what we see in G2SS and a few others where they parse the statements given to the scout for the adult leaders and staff.  Then, they give clarifying explanations for the adults / staff to use to interpret the statements.  IMHO, I think this should be done for ALL BSA requirements.  

I view a facemask or nose plug as an accomodation. Goggles, not so much.  Why?  There is no difference in terms of breathing, etc. with or without goggles. There is a difference between swimming with a mask/nose plugs than without.