Need help getting 15 yr old to complete 2nd Class rank swim requirement

[Stosh]

I had one boy not be able to do the swim test in the lake because the weeds freaked him out.  I sure hope he never dumps his canoe or tips his small boat/sail boat anytime soon.

[qwazse]

Who says you can't use a face mask ?  I'm very much for learning how to swim, but there is flexibility.  IMHO, I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a face mask. ...

If a scout is totally dependent on his face mask, he's a non-swimmer.

Hit the water wrongly, and it's instant racoon-face.

Even snorkeling, we put our masks on after we jump in!

 

This is about a 15 year-old overcoming fear to the point that he's comfortable in his own skin. Not about parsing fine lines to find him an "out."

 

I had one boy not be able to do the swim test in the lake because the weeds freaked him out.  I sure hope he never dumps his canoe or tips his small boat/sail boat anytime soon.

One of the reasons why I declined to swim-test scouts in a local pool. Our camp's swim area is in a lake.

[Col. Flagg]

Just for the sake of argument -- and please don't fall back on the "it's a life skill" stuff -- what about....

• Communications MB: What about a Scout that cannot read well and does the swimming equivalent of struggling mightily through his COH script, missing words, making things unintelligible, misprouncing things and outright "drowning" figuratively. Does he get credit for having done the COH or do we hold him back until he learns to do "swim" through it?
   
• Cooking MB: What about a Scout who cannot even boil water? Do we hold him back until he's perfected his cooking technique to the point where he's safe? Do we not sign off until he can pass all the techniques (stokes) of cooking? Talk about life skill.
   
• First Aid: Can't pass physically performing all the methods of delivering first aid? Can't remember your hurry cases with 100% recall? Pass him? Or keep him until he's can do the BSA Swim Test equivalent of applying first aid every time he is asked?
   
• Personal Fitness: What if a Scout religiously keeps to his 12 week program but, God love him, he just cannot ever show improvement. Do we give him the nod? Or do we force him to re-do it until he can meet the requirement?

Accommodations are given through out Scouting to able-bodied Scouts who simply need some individual understanding. I think some times we look at swimming as a "life skill" and demand near SEAL Team proficiency, that we forget these are kids. You may get a Scout who absolutely ROCK everything he does, but he just happens to be a bit water shy. I am willing to make accommodations for such kids, BUT I will be sure that he gets the extra help to develop his swimming (or cooking, or first aid, or whatever) so he can be well-rounded. I will NOT hold up his MB (and therefore, advancement) because he can't swim 75 yards without goggles.

 

If I hold that against him like that, then I *must* hold the swimmers to my high cooking, first aid and personal fitness standards. To do otherwise is, well, inconsistent.

[qwazse]

Just for the sake of argument -- and please don't fall back on the "it's a life skill" stuff -- what about.......

If I hold that against him like that, then I *must* hold the swimmers to my high cooking, first aid and personal fitness standards. To do otherwise is, well, inconsistent.

For physical problems ... I've gotten waivers. The scout for whom I got them wasn't exactly comfortable with that, but we faced the harsh reality that anatomically he'd sink like a stone and die according to his physician.

 

The MB straw men are not necessarily equivalent. But, if there's a disability for which I can get a waiver to pursue an alternative badge, I will. Otherwise, I expect counselors to help boys work these requirements to the very best of their ability.

 

This is not a high standard! It's the cooking equivalent of not burning water, or not letting meat spoil.

 

We're not punishing the kid by keeping him at Tenderfoot. We're setting a bar that he can choose to overcome, or not. If he chooses not to, that's okay. He can still run for SPL, earn every MB except aquatic ones, do awesome conservation projects toward a Hornaday award, consider a venturing award.

 

I'm not minimizing how overwhelmingly hard this step is for certain youth (and adults). You can see it in their eyes. And it takes days of committed time helping them desensitize themselves to this sort of thing ... hours in the non-swimmers' section ... getting the student to walking you through his/her head to find out how he/she can tune out fear and tune in action ... Something that maybe nobody else ever did for the student. You wonder if you will ever succeed, but one thing sticks in your mind:

 

There is simply nothing less rewarding to a teenager than one more adult doling out a pass.

[Col. Flagg]

For physical problems ... I've gotten waivers. The scout for whom I got them wasn't exactly comfortable with that, but we faced the harsh reality that anatomically he'd sink like a stone and die according to his physician.

 

Not saying physical problems. I am saying he's fully able to, he just can't do it. If we had a "swimmer" with physical problems we'd do the same (get a waiver). I was trying to compare an able bodied Scout who could not swim without goggles or in a lake, to an able bodied Scout who just could never get more than 2 pull ups done despite his trying.

 

The MB straw men are not necessarily equivalent. But, if there's a disability for which I can get a waiver to pursue an alternative badge, I will. Otherwise, I expect counselors to help boys work these requirements to the very best of their ability.

 

Again, not a straw man. The idea is to compare the hard-knocks approach about making guys swim in lakes, without goggles (accommodations) in order to pass their swim test and, therefore, be get credit. If we apply this standard to swimming (arguably because it's a "life skill") why not to cooking, first aid and other things? Again, we are NOT talking about disabilities.

 

You may have missed my point. We are talking able-bodied Scouts, not anyone who is disabled. We are talking about making accommodations across the board on a consistent basis.

 

So if one denies the able bodied kid the use of goggle or an indoor pool to pass his swim test, one must equally deny the able bodied kid the "pass" if he cannot improve his pull up score after practicing for 12 weeks; or the kid who cannot cook an edible meal.

 

See...I am "setting the bar" too.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[qwazse]

You may have missed my point. We are talking able-bodied Scouts, not anyone who is disabled. We are talking about making accommodations across the board on a consistent basis.

 

So if one denies the able bodied kid the use of goggle or an indoor pool to pass his swim test, one must equally deny the able bodied kid the "pass" if he cannot improve his pull up score after practicing for 12 weeks; or the kid who cannot cook an edible meal.

 

See...I am "setting the bar" too.

Okay, so these aren't straw men. I have never had a problem with counselors who read the reqs literally and only gave a partial blue card.

• If a growing boy cannot -- after 12 weeks of determined practice -- improve, either he made a lousy plan, did not really execute his plan, or has a disability interfering with muscle growth and tone.
• If a boy -- after being shown recipes and going over the principles of cooking -- can't make a meal that I'll eat, there's a real problem.
• Same for communications. I've seen severely learning disabled boys get a point across clearly (sometimes trying to convince us that we should let him cut corners on some requirement), start spouting philosophy, organize a rock band, play violin, etc ...
  • Only one friend -- and him only, a very articulate fellow -- was, unbeknownst to anyone close to him, in danger of his life with the burden of giving a presentation. (He ultimately committed suicide at age 26 of such anxiety.) So, yes, if I sense a boy is like that, I would have his parents hustle him to a shrink and get him a waiver. None of these requirements are something to kill oneself over.

I have no problem with an able bodied Life Scout not earning these MBs for one phrase of one requirement standing in his way. He's got a lot to be proud of, why would I ever insult him by being one more adult in his life doling out a pass?

[Stosh]

Okay, stand back and look at the box AND what's not in it.  What's not in the discussion is why are we setting these standards.  They are the minimum expectation necessary to function in an outdoor setting. 

 

All these discussions center around "studying for the test" instead of learning the subject matter so that someday these things might come in handy.  Be prepared meas more than getting ready to get a check box marked off so that one can win the Eagle prize at the end of the day.

[perdidochas]

Who says you can't use a face mask ?  I'm very much for learning how to swim, but there is flexibility.  IMHO, I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a face mask.  IMHO, it's a similar allowance to allowing someone to pass the swimming test in a indoor heated clean pool.  Otherwise, it would be best to test swimming ability in murky green stagnant lake water with small fish nibbling at your leg hair on a cold windy day.  If we allow clean indoor pool water, I see the facemask as a minor accommodation.  

1. Jump feet first into water over the head in depth, level off, and begin swimming..." The swimmer must be able to make an abrupt entry into deep water and begin swimming without any aids. Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, or gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement."

 

BSA, Safe Swim Defense (2017)

 

A facemask is a swimming aid. 

[Back Pack]

1. Jump feet first into water over the head in depth, level off, and begin swimming..." The swimmer must be able to make an abrupt entry into deep water and begin swimming without any aids. Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, or gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement."

 

BSA, Safe Swim Defense (2017)

 

A facemask is a swimming aid.

 

Why are we applying the safe swim defense to a rank requirement?

[perdidochas]

Why are we applying the safe swim defense to a rank requirement?

That is the exact text of the BSA swim test.  

 

Here is the rank requirement:

6a. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/First_Class_rank_2016.pdf

 

I quoted the Safe Swimmer requirements for the BSA swimmer test.  

[qwazse]

The bigger picture, like @stosh implies, is that a rank, especially second and first class, is not an award for passing a series of tests.

It is an award for mastering a set of skills ... skills that imbue confidence that the wearer of the award can hike and camp independently with his mates.

Second class - in particular - implies that if the need arises he can hop in deep water and traverse 100 yards to safety. When a leader gives the boy such a patch, he is telling him "I trust you to be able to do this, among other things."

 

This is no joke. One of our crew VPs was an excellent swimmer and sailor -- freshwater. But when she did the swim test in Seabase Bahamas, the deep freaked her out ... she jumped in, but floated there with her knees at her chest. Had she not been a first-class scout (the concept, not the patch) we might have asked Captain to throw a line. But, because we knew her skills, Mrs. Q could swim up and talk her through the fact that yes, there could be any number of creatures below us, but she could relax, kick her legs out, and enjoy a swim regardless. Doing so unlocked a week full of snorkeling and discovery.

 

"He that is faithful in that which is least ..."

Edited November 8, 2017 by qwazse

[fred johnson]

That is the exact text of the BSA swim test.  

 

Here is the rank requirement:

6a. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/First_Class_rank_2016.pdf

 

I quoted the Safe Swimmer requirements for the BSA swimmer test.  

 

Yeah, that's one of the trouble with BSA.  BSA has many things documented in multiple places in slightly different ways.

 

"without any aids" does not exist in the key documents I've looked at.

 

BSA Scouting.org - "ADMINISTRATION OF SWIM CLASSIFICATION TEST" - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor%20program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf

 

BSA Scouting.org - "Safe Swim Defense" - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/Aquatics/safe-swim.aspx

 

Both give the test details and do not contain "without any aids".  

 

I don't doubt you found one that says "without any aids".  Where did you find yours?  

 

Please note ... The link you gave just says pass the swim test.  Both of the above two links describe the swim test.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by fred johnson

[fred johnson]

... One of our crew VPs was an excellent swimmer and sailor -- freshwater. But when she did the swim test in Seabase Bahamas, the deep freaked her out ...

 

This is one of the reasons that I think anyone using the waterfront at camp should do the swim test at camp.  Conditions (temp, waves, fish, algea) all affect the ability to swim.  

 

I've never been that comfortable with troops that hand-in their "at home" swim test results.  It's also a reason the swim test is re-given relatively near the time of the events.  Time and conditions change.  Heck, I know many SMs that are Eagle Scouts that I question whether they could pass a swim test.

Edited November 8, 2017 by fred johnson

[fred johnson]

I trust that you saw "without any aid".  So I kept looking ... I have not found it yet.

 

BSA Scouting.org - Summary of Aquadics Safety  - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx

 

BSA Scouting.org - Guide To Safe Scouting - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... page 9.

 

BSA Scouting.org - 2017 Aquatic staff guide - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/2017_aquatic_%20staff_guide.pdf  ... only refers to the change of direction must happen in deep water without any push off or other aid.

[qwazse]

"without any aids" does not exist in the key documents I've looked at.

...

I don't doubt you found one that says "without any aids".  Where did you find yours?  

 

Please note ... The link you gave just says pass the swim test.  Both of the above two links describe the swim test.  

Here's one: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/council368/General/BSAGuideToSafeScouting.pdf from 2007.

It looks like it is not in the new National version.

It is in some council description of the swim test.

I suspect this is because someone might split hairs about what constitutes an aid.

 

I refuse to split hairs. I'm more concerned with what would maintain my confidence as a life guard. A kid comfortable in his own skin does just that. A kid who needs a prop does not. The pool/lake difference doesn't bug me. (In fact, I don't grudge any kid wanting swim goggles to test in a pool. The chlorine is hard on the eyes.) But, seeing the example of scouts who wanted to practice in the pool to be sure they could pass the test in the lake -- and the subsequent pride when they did -- I support what gives youth the most confidence.