can a den leader remove a Cub Scout?

[The Blancmange]

I saw this article today:

 

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/18/cub-scout-kicked-out-questioned-senator-vicki-marble/

 

Is this even possible? How can a den leader remove a scout without the consent of the pack leadership? or maybe the writer confused scouting terminology?

[CalicoPenn]

A Den Leader can remove a Cub from the Den - but not the Pack.  The Pack would the be responsible for finding a new Den for the boy.

 

If it were the Cubmaster, the boy would stay in his Den with a new Den Leader.

[SSScout]

Yes, I saw that too.  I wonder at a Cub leader who would "remove" a Cub from a Den, for ANY reason.  

1)  As in many events, perhaps we do not have all the information. "Chicken Gate"?  What does that mean?

2) I would hope we encourage our Scouts to think for themselves.  If Ames did his homework (sounds like he did?),  he asked a reasonable question and got a reasonable answer from the Senator. 

3)  I am thinking, if I am still around in 30 years, and in his state, I might vote for him for governor.

[numbersnerd]

Pretty sure there's more to the story than this. Although it's not like the media to leave out relevant facts or not do more investigation before publishing a story. 

 

It's rare (but not impossible) that a kid of this age is going to run with this line of questioning. Really suspect the parents behind this.

Very likely (yes, based on my opinion) is that the parents have some kind of political crusade and scripted the questions in furtherance of their agenda. Wouldn't really surprise me if this has happened before with this family.

 

 

Some other questions:

The program is supposed to be apolitical. Maybe his behavior was considered political in nature and outside of acceptable behavior.

But how could that be?

Leadership had issued guidelines about what the purpose of the meeting was and and this behavior violated those parameters.

What if this had been a recurring problem with this family?

Repeated refusal to follow instructions?

Repeatedly engaging in activity and discussion political in nature.

 

There's another side to this story, bet on it.

 

Yes, if the above hypotheticals were true, I'd eventually reach my limit and they would be booted. Why ruin the experience for everyone for the sake of one family that can't behave. That would be an instance in which I would remove him.

Edited October 20, 2017 by numbersnerd

[Tampa Turtle]

Yes, if he was a kid or family that was constantly '$--t stirring' and there told that there would be a sense of decorum I'd consider a 'time out' from the Pack. But if the Senator was basically doing a stump speech and the boy was earnest and informed I'd tell him to come cover to my Troop in a few years. I saw several videos...he did do a long question on gun control that made her uncomfortable. I suspect they were doing Webelo Citizen #10...

 

We have a politically diverse Troop and maintaining civility while being open to respectful and thoughtful discourse is a BIG deal. Not always achieved though.

 

I have an issue with kicking a Webelo out over something like that, it happened to me waaay back in 1972 and was one of the reasons I did not go on into Boy Scouts back in the day. 

 

I would like to know the whole story.

[Tampa Turtle]

This story gives a few more details: http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/19/scouts-overreact-in-kicking-out-a-cub-for-pointed-questions/

[Snow Owl]

I think we are not getting even close to the whole story.  The two statements I saw he asked where:

 

“I was astonished that you blamed black people for poor health and poverty because of all the chicken and barbecue they eat,â€

 

"I was shocked that you co-sponsored a bill to allow domestic violence offenders to continue to own a gun, Why on earth would you want someone who beats their wife to have access to a gun?"

 

Given his mother's significant political activism I have a hard time believing the story on face value.  BSA nor the unit can comment on what issues may or may not have existed with the Scout and his mother or is he was asked to change dens what was the reason.  Again we do not know, but what if there was another issue or problem unrelated to the statements he made to the state senator?

 

I have first hand knowledge of a number of situations when a Scout or their family have been separated from a unit.  No details or any information is ever disseminated or released.  There are major privacy restrictions so BSA at any level, as well as the unit, is bared from explaining or giving any details.

 

In the story at hand, the mother and the Scout can say what they wish to the media, BSA, the unit and the chartered organization are greatly limited as to what they can say.

 

I can't help but think this was orchestrated by the mother to get the exact media attention she is getting.

[krikkitbot]

 

I can't help but think this was orchestrated by the mother to get the exact media attention she is getting.

 

These are my thoughts exactly. I'm willing to bet that there was a lot more to this but we are only getting the mother's side of the story. 

[The Blancmange]

These are my thoughts exactly. I'm willing to bet that there was a lot more to this but we are only getting the mother's side of the story. 

 

Why would you presume that the mother is being anything less than forthright?  If her version were incorrect, one would think someone would correct it in order to save face.   The second story linked above makes more sense and also makes her story seem even more credible. 

[NJCubScouter]

I'm not sure whether the answer to this question appears in any BSA publications, but it does not seem logical to me that a Den Leader would be able to remove a Cub Scout from his den.  A den is a subdivision of the pack, and the Den Leader is appointed by the PACK (officially, the CO) to lead the den.  A pack can decide to increase or decrease the number of dens at a particular level, and reassign the boys accordingly.  So I think the removal of a Cub Scout from a den is something that would have to be done at the pack level, not unilaterally by the Den Leader.

 

Regardless of who does it, and regardless of whether the council eventually sides with the Den Leader or the Cub Scout, I think this sends a very bad message to these young people in whom the BSA is trying to instill the values of citizenship.  I am not exactly sure where you draw the line between a question that is "pointed" and one that is "disrespectful" but I do not think these questions cross that line.  Nobody should be surprised when a politician is asked tough questions.

[The Blancmange]

 

Regardless of who does it, and regardless of whether the council eventually sides with the Den Leader or the Cub Scout, I think this sends a very bad message to these young people in whom the BSA is trying to instill the values of citizenship.  I am not exactly sure where you draw the line between a question that is "pointed" and one that is "disrespectful" but I do not think these questions cross that line.  Nobody should be surprised when a politician is asked tough questions.

 

Well said.  I agree.

[krikkitbot]

Why would you presume that the mother is being anything less than forthright?  If her version were incorrect, one would think someone would correct it in order to save face.   The second story linked above makes more sense and also makes her story seem even more credible. 

 

Why would you presume that the pack is not?

 

There are always two sides to a story. Unfortunately with this type of case you can only get one side. Maybe there were other behavioral issues. Maybe there had been safety issues. Maybe it has nothing to do with the questions but the timing creates a good narrative. My point is we don't know the pack's side of the story. 

[The Blancmange]

Why would you presume that the pack is not?

 

 

I didn't; I took the mother's word in the absence of any contrary account put forth by the unit, the council, or anyone else. The only account of which I am aware to judge the event is the mother's (other than the video of the actual exchange with Sen. Marble, which corroborates what was said).

 

To continue your line of speculative "maybe's," maybe the den leader is a racist knuckle-dragger who agrees with the senator's "chicken & barbecue" comments and retaliated against the scout because of that. His or her silence certainly leaves the door open for that conclusion.

 

The lack of a substantive response is quite conspicuous. If there were a defensible explanation for this, the reputation-conscious folks at council would have been all over it.

Edited October 20, 2017 by The Blancmange

[The Blancmange]

 There are major privacy restrictions so BSA at any level, as well as the unit, is bared from explaining or giving any details.

 

 

 

Where?  Show me a BSA rule that says if I, a registered volunteer, am falsely accused in the media of something improper, I cannot respond publicly to set the record straight.

 

I think you're confusing scouting with a school or medical provider, who do have statutory privacy obligations. 

[Snow Owl]

Let say the scout was asked to leave for other behavior,  the Council nor BSA would say anything it would violate privacy and disclosure laws related to minors. 

 

This is completely a hypothetical mind you but for sake of thought.  The mother wanted a confrontation, feeds her son who shares her views very poignant statement thinly masked as questions.  She films the entire exchange (releases portions of it but not he entire meeting).  The Scouts had been given guidelines of proper behavior and the parents were also informed of the decorum and accepted behavior and if they did not agree to the guidelines set out they could choose not to attend. The mother's filming  violated the guidelines and agreed upon decorum for the meeting.  the Scouts questions also violated the set out rules.

 

Then after the Senator's visit has concluded, the den leader, being upset and possible politically aligned with the senator, confronts the mother and Scout about the incident.  Not kicking them out of the den but pointing out they had agreed by coming to the meeting to not do exactly whet they did.  But the Scout & his mother basically say we don't like your rules and we do not need to follow them.  Den leader says well if you do not like my rules and the way I am running the den, you can go to another den or sign up and be a leader yourself.

 

So again, hypothetically, the den leader, the cubmaster nor council or BSA would say anything different than they already have.  Again this is all hypothetical.  But you can see an easily alternative situation but BSA, the CO and the leaders cannot say anything related to any of it.

 

Just food for thought before we jump to conclusions based on only one side of the story when there are actually many sides.