Flag Etiquette

[Owl62]

Even though carrying this large Flag is a technical violation of the US Flag Code, I think the intent is good and the manner of display is respectful.

 

I have no problem carrying or displaying such a large Flag horizontally as long as it is done respectfully with intend to honor the Flag and what it stands for.

 

On 11 September 2001, there was a Soldier in NYC who was shown wrapped in a Flag - technically inappropriate, but it brought tears to my eyes for another reason. Some of you will underand why. Personally, I was proud of that young Soldier.

 

 

There are examples of of actions that show far more disrespect for our Flag:

 

Displaying, worn, torn, tattered, faded Flags.

 

Making Flags into articles of clothing or baggage.

 

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag passes by such as in a parade (stand, remove hat, etc.).

 

Failing to show proper respect when the Flag is raised, lowered,passes by, or when the National Anthem is played.

 

Just discarding an unserviceable Flag in the trash.

 

Deliberately desecrating the Flag.

 

Homeowner associations declaring display of the Flag as a violation of the association agreement.

 

And it appears that many in this country think that the last words of the National Anthem are "Play Ball" or "Start Your Engines".

 

I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial.

 

I was once at a Flag retirement ceremony at a Scout activity. When the Flag was placed in the fire, we were asked by the program director to turn our backs and walk away from the fire in a show of respect. Respect our Flag by turning our backs and walking away! I was the only person that remained, at attention, watching until every part of that Flag was consumed by the fire. I was not about to turn my back on that Flag!

 

Just please respect our Flag.

 

I once observed an elderly man in a wheelchair at a parade, struggle to his feet, stand at attention with his hand over his heart as a Color Guard carried the Flag past, while nearly everyone around him just sat on the curb. I have no idea who he was but it was obvious from his actions and bearing that he once served in the military. And he showed respect.

 

I have heard a suggestion that unserviceable Flags be buried with Veterans. I think that is a very good idea - and acceptable. What more appropriate honor for a Veteran to rest forever with a Flag that will be guarded by the Veteran for eternity by a Veteran who served under the Flag.

 

Our country it the only one that I have been in or know of where the display of the Flag is widespread and common - not just from government facilities, but from our homes, our vehicles, and our persons. People from other countries usually do not understand this passion for our flag. I do.

 

The Flag is a very personal symbol for me. I was born under it, serve under it, and I will respect it and safeguard it.

 

Why must we argue over things like this? - the well intended display of our Flag.

 

The Flag stands for all this country was, is, and will be. It is a symbol of sacrific, honor, unity. It is ours. Just please respect the Flag for what it stands for.

 

[Hunt]

This reminds me of when Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The flag code is designed to engender respect for the flag--and the flag itself is a symbol of the nation. I have seen many flags being carried horizontally by firefighters, children, and others, and it is absurd for anybody to say that any of those people were showing disrespect for the flag--the opposite is the case. In my opinion, the people who complained about this flag are spoilsports who put legalistic readings of laws before their purposes.

[John-in-KC]

A long time ago, in fact 29 years this fall, I was a sophomore in college and had just joined the Army, by accepting enlistment as a Cadet under an ROTC scholarship.

 

Our detachment had a great Sergeant Major that year. He took an active part in honing us scholarship students as a Color Guard.

 

Sergeant Major had something very specific to say about the destruction of a Color: "When you must destroy a Color, cut it in two pieces: The Field from the Stripes. You do this that you do not burn our Flag, as the draft dodgers and the desecrators do. Instead, you are simply destroying two pieces of cloth, each of which has meaning to a Soldier."

 

Should anyone ever need it, here is the current statute law for our Flag:

 

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/ch1.html

 

Here is the American Legion website. They are an exceptional resource of Flag policy and precedent:

http://www.legion.org/

 

John

[John-in-KC]

A long time ago, in fact 29 years this fall, I was a sophomore in college and had just joined the Army, by accepting enlistment as a Cadet under an ROTC scholarship.

 

Our detachment had a great Sergeant Major that year. He took an active part in honing us scholarship students as a Color Guard.

 

Sergeant Major had something very specific to say about the destruction of a Color: "When you must destroy a Color, cut it in two pieces: The Field from the Stripes. You do this that you do not burn our Flag, as the draft dodgers and the desecrators do. Instead, you are simply destroying two pieces of cloth, each of which has meaning to a Soldier."

 

Should anyone ever need it, here is the current statute law for our Flag:

 

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/ch1.html

 

Here is the American Legion website. They are an exceptional resource of Flag policy and precedent:

http://www.legion.org/

 

John

 

PS: I think this unit has a great service project ahead of it: A Flagpole sufficient to fly what I assume is a Garrison flag. Set the pole and give this flag a Guard of Honor enroute to being properly flown. Yet again I say: A flag folded in the tricorn is always appropriate for movement.

[LittleCarl]

Thank you OWL62

[Fat Old Guy]

"I personally consider cutting the Flag into pieces during Flag retirement ceremonies as desecration and I will not participate in that. Cutting the Flag up for such a purpose is not mentioned in the US Flag Code either but it is routinely done, even by Scout units. The preferred method of retirement is by burning and or burial."

 

I had never heard of this until a few years ago. I don't consider it necessary but I think that the VFW recommends it. It may not be code but neither is the triangular folding of the flag.

[willysjeep]

Flags can be cut, because then it "ceases to be a flag and is OK to dispose of in a fire" without disrespecting the flag it's self, only doing something with the material it was made from.

 

Flags can also be retired whole and folded in triangles, or squares with the red and white out even.

 

I went to Mackinac Island Scout Service Camp three times over the past years. The parks service has a flag of about the dimesnions you described. We only get to raise it on calm days because the foot thick fiberglass flag pole could snap in a stiff breeze. When we lower it it takes ten people on the rope to keep it from just blowing away. We catch the end and feed it back over the shoulders of a line of scouts. A flag this big is just impossible to fold without a whole troop helping out. It is also impossible to fold with the "correct" number of folds because it is so large. We march the flag back on our shoulders to the parade grounds in front of the scout barracks. We ring the flag with people and even have two or three really small guys go underneath to keep it from sagging on the ground as we fold it.

 

There is simply no precident for flags this large. If we went totally "by the book" with only three people folding each one, only carrying it folded, and using the "correct" number of folds and pleats we would end up with a big mangled football shaped wad of cloth to carry around. You have to take a few libertys with such a large flag in order not to be "respectful" to a fault and damage the flag or put it in danger because we can't use enough people to practically manage it.

 

Mabey, just mabey, you could bug the city you live in to spring for a big municipal flag pole and hoist that monster flag of yours on it at the end of the parade. Carry it folded and make a bigger ceremony out of raising it. I know I've seen flags this big on somewhat small poles. As long as the pole is sturdy enough and at least tall enough so the flag doesn't come close to the ground I'd say you could probably pull it off, if you wanted to.

[acco40]

I don't understand why size makes the "correct number of folds" change. Folding in half still takes one fold regardless of size.

[OldGreyEagle]

One part of YoungSpikedEagles Eagle Project was composing and running a flag retirement ceremony. Other portions were the replacment of American flags at the graves of veterans at local Cemeteries and collecting American Flags from the general public and governmental units.

 

The local VFW was the sponsoring organization.

 

As part of the Ceremony YoungSpiked researched the flag code and assembled a ceremony to be used while 712 American Flags were retired.

 

The opening of the Ceremony was YoungSpiked saying

 

"According to Title 36, section 176, of the United States Code: "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;"

 

Paragraph K of this same section, states: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

 

Each flag that meassured three feet wide to 8 feet wide had a six foot length of hay bale

twine tied to each corner. Four scouts then

carried the flag to the fire by means of the twine, the fire had flames 2-3 feet high and was about 4'X 8' in dimension. As the scouts brought each flag over the fire, the flag would catch the heat rising from the flames and billow up. The scouts would then slowly lower the flag, by means of the twine down towards the flames. At about 3-5 inches from the flames the scouts would stop and within about 5-20 seconds (depending on the flag material, thin cotton being the fastest) the flags would literally explode into flames with only the charred ends of the twine touching the coals. The scouts would toss the twine into the fire and circle around to get another flag. The smaller flags that had been collected from Veterans graves were Bundled into 50 flags groups bound together with wire and brought over the fire vertically.

 

Larger Flags were placed on a Metal Grill placed in the fire before it was lit

 

While this was occurring the Bethlehem's Liberty High Schools' Bagpiper Corp and Band played alternating with the Reading of the Declation of Independance and a few other patriotic compositions.

 

When it was over, the VFW group had tears in their eyes and thanked YoungSpiked who then had tears of his own.

[Adrianvs]

I see nothing wrong with cutting the flag into pieces immediately prior to burning. In fact, I as asked to participate in such a ceremony last summer. I was the one doing the cutting. I had never heard of the ceremony before, but it was done most respectfully. The stripes were cut off and burned individually. The blue field was retired last while the final salute was given.

 

Catholic practice has similar rules for the disposal of blessed items. Blessed items are to be reverently broken into pieces so that they do not resemble the original item blessed. They can then be buried or burned. Alternately, they could just be reverently burned whole. Given this, I am probably biased towards accepting the disassembly of flags as part of a retirement ceremony. Of course, I see nothing wrong with burning them whole, either. If you have more than one flag to retire, this is probably the best method. You don't want to find yourself rushing through the disassembly of several flags.

 

Remember that the flag is only a symbol and that as long as your actions are respectful and understood to be respectful by those observing, then there shouldn't be a problem.

[LittleCarl]

I agree with you. I would imagine this was the thought of our forefathers as well and a consideration when the US Flag Code was drawn.

 

We too have performed retirements by cutting the field of blue from the flag as well as removing the individual stripes. The ceremony includes an explanation of the process/procedure, the reason for the removal or disassembly and of course is done in a most respectful and solemn manner. I would say the main reason for us cutting a flag has to do with its size. There is also a safety consideration for the scouts performing the ceremony. Otherwise we retire a flag whole.

 

This Troop takes flag retirement very seriously because 95% of the adult leadership is former or current Military. We all discuss every situation whether it is a retirement or a display to ensure we are respectful. The point is, we fought or are serving for the Flag and if we feel we are being respectful, then so be it.

 

The last thing Adrianvs says, as long as your actions are respectful and understood to be respectful by those observing, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

There in lies the problem. Those observing disagree with us and consider what we are doing as disrespectful and questions the message we are sending to our young impressionable Scouts. They spout the US flag code as being law, and BSA policy violations. So what are we to do?

 

[hops_scout]

"Remember that the flag is only a symbol and that as long as your actions are respectful and understood to be respectful by those observing, then there shouldn't be a problem."

 

 

I NEVER want to hear that again. It is not JUST a symbol.

[Adrianvs]

The flag is only a symbol.

 

I am not one who regularly engages in hyperbole. The flag was created by men and has no power apart from that which it symbolizes. Please explain to me what the flag is if not a symbol. Was it the word "symbol" or the word "only" that you objected to? The word "only" can be put in front of whatever word you choose to replace symbol. I suspect that you might refer to it as a "living embodiment" or some such phrase. Would you really mean that? Of course not. It may seem like harmless hyperbole, but some of us actually believe in living embodiments or other such phenomena and occasionally refer to them. When you use phrases like this to refer to symbols, it kills the effectiveness of language.

 

Is the Union Jack a symbol? What about the tricouleur? Is the fleur-di-lis a symbol? Your patrol flag? They are all symbols. Get over it.(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[txscoutdad]

Adrianv,

How would you interpet the following from the flag code chapter 1 sect 8.j

 

"The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing."

[hops_scout]

Thank you txscoutdad for explaining it to them. Apparently they dont understand.