shortridge Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I went through the same heartbreak a few years back with the YMCA when it stopped being Young, Men, or Christian. Just a few years ago? I know it's such a pain to have to associate with women, old folk and pagans. But that's the world. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 You know, you're shutting down a conversation among Scouters with differing views, and replacing it with a question which no one here has the answer to. Is there something wrong with exploring why military academies (historically male-only institutions that have fairly recently gone co-ed) do or do not offer pertinent insight as to how the BSA may approach the same kind of problem? Conversation or bickering? My point is stay on topic, the debating coach argument is not relevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I certainly hope national quickly sends out some sort of transition plan to packs. I've already have parents of girls sending in emails asking what uniform they should buy and if they can fully participate in the pack now. They saw 2018 and think that means January. I'm glad we had a committee meeting planned for tomorrow so we can fumble our way through this. It will be a long night at the bar (no uniforms at this one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranman328 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 My personal challenge to every person that supports this decision - go out and recruit AT LEAST one new volunteer (preferably female) to make this inclusion a success. We asked for this, now let us support it. Take ownership of the success, or the failure. Hawkwin, who is "We" that asked for this? Me personally, I am already swamped doing my volunteer work as a Scoutmaster, Merit Badge Counselor and Unit Commissioner, I don't have any more time to spend away from my family to recruit for a decision I don't support. Our District is already shutting down and merging Venture Crews because of lack of membership and adult volunteers. This decision is going to further drive people away from the program. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Hawkwin, who is "We" that asked for this? Me personally, I am already swamped doing my volunteer work as a Scoutmaster, Merit Badge Counselor and Unit Commissioner, I don't have any more time to spend away from my family to recruit for a decision I don't support. Our District is already shutting down and merging Venture Crews because of lack of membership and adult volunteers. This decision is going to further drive people away from the program. I would think the "we" is rather obvious - those of us that asked for this change. Since you did not support or ask for this change, I am not asking anything more from you. Simple enough, right? Edit: And as far as driving people away - it certainly might and probably will drive some away, just like integration drove some away and the inclusion of gay scouts drove some away. Doing the right thing isn't always immediately popular. It also might drive more to join. It will certainly be a +1 situation in my household. My 9 year daughter was ecstatic to learn of this change. I've already heard from another scout parent in our Troop who also has a 9 year old daughter that is very excited about this change - and both of our daughters are currently Girl Scouts. Edited October 12, 2017 by Hawkwin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Just a few years ago? I know it's such a pain to have to associate with women, old folk and pagans. But that's the world. There is a point when this culture of total inclusiveness becomes a conduit for outright bigotry. We are there. Edited October 12, 2017 by David CO 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 There is a point when this culture of total inclusiveness becomes a conduit for outright bigotry. We are there. What is bigoted about this decision? Your CO has the complete freedom to remain boy-only. What difference does it make to you if a girl 1000 miles away earns her Eagle but your scouts never see a girl in their troop? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranman328 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I would think the "we" is rather obvious - those of us that asked for this change. Since you did not support or ask for this change, I am not asking anything more from you. Simple enough, right? Edit: And as far as driving people away - it certainly might and probably will drive some away, just like integration drove some away and the inclusion of gay scouts drove some away. Doing the right thing isn't always immediately popular. It also might drive more to join. It will certainly be a +1 situation in my household. My 9 year daughter was ecstatic to learn of this change. I've already heard from another scout parent in our Troop who also has a 9 year old daughter that is very excited about this change - and both of our daughters are currently Girl Scouts. Again, I ask who is the "WE" and how are the "WE" going to bring in new members and match or increase the losses that this decision is going to generate. I wonder if the latest fee increase is geared to have the current BSA members "ME" pay for getting this program started or is it because previous poor decisions have drove membership down so much that they can't pay for the current program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Again, I ask who is the "WE" and how are the "WE" going to bring in new members and match or increase the losses that this decision is going to generate. I wonder if the latest fee increase is geared to have the current BSA members "ME" pay for getting this program started or is it because previous poor decisions have drove membership down so much that they can't pay for the current program? What is your confusion? The we are those of us that asked for this change. If you are asking me to list every single person in the country that wanted this change, then I can't help you. Per the news release, and assuming you believe it, polling indicated that many people wanted this change. I am calling on those people that wanted this to step up to the plate and own it. "We" asked for it now we should not simply sit back and put it on the shoulders of the current leaders. We should do our part to make it work by helping to recruit new volunteers. If anything, I would think those that DON'T support this change would appreciate the fact that I am taking the initiative to make this ask of the supporters. The fee increase was to rebuild the litigation fund. BSA has been sued for millions annually and the membership fee increase will be totally used to help rebuild that fund. I have no insight and it would be of no benefit for me to speculate on the reason for those various law suits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Again, I ask who is the "WE" and how are the "WE" going to bring in new members and match or increase the losses that this decision is going to generate As a committee chair of a pack, Eagle Scout, long term BSA supporter and parent of a 10 year old Webelos scout and a 6 year old girl who will be a future Cub Scout.... i am one of the "we". I'm sure there are many others. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numbersnerd Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 As a committee chair of a pack, Eagle Scout, long term BSA supporter and parent of a 10 year old Webelos scout and a 6 year old girl who will be a future Cub Scout.... i am one of the "we". I'm sure there are many others. As a Tiger thru Webelo leader, Cubmaster, Eagle Scout, long term BSA supporter and parent of an 8 year old Bear and an 11 year old Scout, I am not one of the "we". And yes, I'm sure there are many others. Was never asked, invited, surveyed, polled, or included in any conversation regarding a policy change that fundamentally transforms the program. What I find interesting is they referred to the survey of non-Scout families about their thoughts, desires and motivations regarding the BSA. What about the findings of the survey of existing membership asking about THEIR thoughts, desires and motivations in being members? Oh, you mean there wasn't one? Exactly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 If you can't see the difference between a fully developed emotional mind of an adult US Army Cadet, and the still in progress developing minds and bodies of boys and girls... I don't know what to tell you. You're kidding, right? You do know that West Point Cadets are just colege students with uniforms and enforced discipline, right? There has been a lot more study into the human brain since Freud and Jung. Its pretty much accepted in the field that humans don't have fully developed emotional minds until at least 25 - and that pretty much leaves out traditionally aged college students, including West Point cadets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Only time will really tell. And this is only the first chapter. We will have the second entry the end of next year with the Scout level. I still simply do not comprehend why so many people that seem rational in other instances get so het up when changes evolve with societal adjustments. BP was never one to ignore changing ideas and norms in society and he recommended flexibility and a broad effort to adjust to complexities in the changing cultural norms of the time. As I have said numerous times. The sky is not falling. Be adults and either decide to find a way to adjust, or live in the past. It is not 1910 anymore, nor is it even 2000. Anybody paying attention would have seen this coming a decade or more ago. Society evolves normally over time, and we can try to stay in our perceived better zone, or we can work within the new program outline to make it as good as we are able to continue to serve the youth for whom we supposedly do this in the first place. While I realize I am living in an area that is not seen as reflective of a broader landscape in our society, that is So Cal, I have not heard all the nasty rumblings that some already are saying is occurring in "their" councils. Frankly, I do not think many actually have their ears to the ground and are actually hearing what goes on around them. They are frozen in their preferred roles and little patch of life, and they are simply going to ignore anything that might disrupt their ideals, even if it is something that has potential to make new advances and extend a great program to the broader field of youth we encounter. Personally, I see the entire motion towards adjusting and accepting these changes as mostly a win. I do hope that the needed tweaks will be recognized and things monitored to see the early indicators of bumps in the road. But, I realized that some of my vintage will not be able to go forward. All I ask is that they keep their objections civil and do not somehow try to sabotage things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemlaw Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Very excited about this news and also very excited to have both a son and a daughter than will be able to earn the right to wear the Eagle. The first thing I did after reading the announcement was ask my daughter if she would like to be an Eagle Scout. She said she probably would. She will be 13 in 2019, so I suspect she will be an Eagle some day. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CricketEagle Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) From a 3rd generation scouter, my children will likely be the last. Can't get out fast enough. Would not recommend BSA anymore. Spoke to another long term SM today and he feels the same. Once again BSA has created the feeling of jamming down a pre-ordained result for units to deal with. We no longer trust BSA in any form. The concept of separate units or local choice does not ring true. We have dealt with council and national over the years on difficult issues. The result has always been that BSA caves or gets risk adverse when someone threatens lawyers. BSA will put in some polite two faced talk about local choice, but will never provide support. Most chartered orgs will walk away rather than deal with the hassles. Our chartered org has stood it's ground so far, I am not sure they will continue. They recently canceled other programs because of problems with youth and parents. I am watching the twitter messages blow up from the comments by the boys in my troop. They are not happy. Most enjoy the time of just being boys. They are the customers, they are who we serve. This family scouting concept sounds more like helicopter parents to me. More car camping. For those of you new or inexperience with dealing with BSA be warned. They will leave you hanging even if you did everything by the book and have a dozen witnesses. What was once just considered bad behavior is now considered bullying. It used to be dealt with quickly and corrected, now we talk about "feelings" and worry that a parent might sue. Now what is bad behavior will be considered sexual harassment. So when 10 1/2 year old Johnny goes into Mary's tent to play a joke it will no longer just be bad behavior to be corrected as part of the growing process. It will be elevated to the level of harassment. Don't worry, I am sure BSA will invent a 2 day required training program that will fix this all (Hint sarcasm), we will have to repeat it every 3 months to be current. That always fixes things Edited October 12, 2017 by CricketEagle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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