OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

[NJCubScouter]

I am quoting the charter for the purpose of pointing out that it expressly charters a program for boys.  "boys" "them" =boys

 

The consequences of ignoring the express terms of the charter deserve some thought by some competent person.  Arguably, BSA loses its chartered status when it ignores so fundamental a term of its charter.  It could be argued that the current policy to a gender-neutral program shift is ultra virus - beyond the power of the corporation's leadership to validly do as a federally-chartered organizatuion.  Indeed, that argument has already been made, by B.S.A., om 2016:

 

""The Boy Scouts of America told CBS2 via email that allowing girls to join the organization would go against the group’s original charter, created in 1916.

 

'The Boy Scouts of America was chartered by Congress in 1916 to serve boys and young men across the nation through the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts programs,' the organization said in a statement.

 

The organization says to change the standard Boy Scout program would 'go outside the bounds' of their charter."

 

So BSA needs to turn in it's federal charter.

So when are you filing the lawsuit?

[Hawkwin]

In this case, the Article and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America specifically incorporate the federal Charter and declare that it is controlling over any- thing to the contrary published by anyone:

 

"General Clause

1. These Bylaws shall be consistent with the Charter. The Rules and Regulations shall be consistent with the Charter and the Bylaws. In the event of any conflicts or inconsistencies, the Charter shall govern primarily and the Bylaws secondarily.

 

Specifics

Clause 2. All statements contained in official publications of the Boy Scouts of America, its local councils and affiliates, including (but not limited to) handbooks, pamphlets, instructions, magazine articles, bulletins, manuals, and letters, which may, from time to time, be issued for clarification or explanation of official language shall be consistent with the language and intent of the Charter, the Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations. Any contradictory or inconsistent language is unauthorized and without effect."

 

So not so "mere" in this case.  If we read the Charter to have the plain meaning of its words, the "historic decision" of the Board of Directors is "unauthorized and without effect."  

 

As for the effect of the program changes since 1916, that is another topic and one that that has already flamed its way through pages of posts.

 

 

You didn't read far enough.

 

ARTICLE VII. YOUTH MEMBERSHIP

 

Section 1. Those eligible to participate in programs designed for youth and young adults shall collectively be known as “youth program participants.†Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all who meet the membership requirements. Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys. Venturing is for young men and young women. Those youth program participants who are at least 18 years of age and eligible to participate in programs designed for youth shall be referred to as “adult program participants.â€

 

Section 2. Both membership in Scouting and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting units are open to all boys and, where authorized, young women, without regard to race or ethnic background, and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting is based entirely upon individual merit.

 

----------------

 

I expect, based on the result of the national vote, we will see Section 1 reworded appropriately.

 

But, anyone that feels strongly that they are in violation of Congressional statute certainly has legal remedies. There appear to be enough like-minded scouters that could pool their resources into a court challenge if they so desired. Probably a few attorneys that would even take the case pro bono.

[desertrat77]

Calico, I still use the scout's pace at times.

 

Read about it in an old scout book when I was I kid.  Had to walk every where back then, long distances, so I tried it. 

 

Worked like a charm.  Just about the time I was tired/bored of running 50 paces, I'd walk 50 paces.  Catch my breath.  Run 50.  Walk 50.   Repeat cycle until I arrived at my destination.

 

Not that this has anything to do with the topic at hand.  Apologies and carry on.

[TAHAWK]

So when are you filing the lawsuit?

You too? 

 

We all live in a World we did not create.  We can barely influence our little corner.  

 

It was BSA's argument last year, and the reality is what it is.

[cocomax]

I just saw on the news that over in the UK the Girl Scouts (Girl Guides) are letting 25 year old men who identify as a female shower with the girls 5 to 25.   There are people over there that are very upset about the change, don't worry I am sure their leaders will be able to calm everyone down and remind everyone that the Girls need to all live by the Girl Scout law.

[TAHAWK]

"The guidance states that it is not 'best practice' to inform parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event."

 

Mum might get upset.  Best not tell her.   

[Cambridgeskip]

I just saw on the news that over in the UK the Girl Scouts (Girl Guides) are letting 25 year old men who identify as a female shower with the girls 5 to 25. There are people over there that are very upset about the change, don't worry I am sure their leaders will be able to calm everyone down and remind everyone that the Girls need to all live by the Girl Scout law.

Not true. The articles on this have all been spun to make it look like that. While it is true that transgender individuals who identify as female may now join the girl guides most certainly do not allow 18+ members to shower with those aged under 18. It is scare mongering nonsense.

 

Furthermore I've yet to encounter a scout or hide campsite (we use each other's sites here) where the showers aren't individual cubicals anyway

Edited November 29, 2017 by Cambridgeskip

[Eagle94-A1]

5 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Not true. The articles on this have all been spun to make it look like that. While it is true that transgender individuals who identify as female may now join the girl guides most certainly do not allow 18+ members to shower with those aged under 18. It is scare mongering nonsense.

 

Furthermore I've yet to encounter a scout or hide campsite (we use each other's sites here) where the showers aren't individual cubicals anyway

 

Grant you it's been 20+ years, but Youlbury International Scout Campsite ( world's oldest continually used Scout camp by the way  ) didn't have individual cubicals when I worked there.  

 

Regarding informing the parents, that concerns me, and over here that would be a major Youth Protection violation.

[TAHAWK]

Hawkwin:

 

"You didn't read far enough.

 

'ARTICLE VII. YOUTH MEMBERSHIP

 

Section 1. Those eligible to participate in programs designed for youth and young adults shall collectively be known as “youth program participants.†Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all who meet the membership requirements. Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys. Venturing is for young men and young women. Those youth program participants who are at least 18 years of age and eligible to participate in programs designed for youth shall be referred to as “adult program participants.â€

 

Section 2. Both membership in Scouting and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting units are open to all boys and, where authorized, young women, without regard to race or ethnic background, and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting is based entirely upon individual merit.'"

 

Hawkwin, even assuming your interpretation of the words that you cite, which I absolutely reject, you seem to wish to set aside these words of the Bylaws that precede, both in position and in effect, the words that you quote:

 

"General Clause

1. These Bylaws shall be consistent with the Charter. The Rules and Regulations shall be consistent with the Charter and the Bylaws. In the event of any conflicts or inconsistencies, the Charter shall govern primarily and the Bylaws secondarily."

[emphasis added]

 

And the Charter, an Act of Congress, that governs over every word you quoted, says:

 

"That the purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts."[emphasis added]

 

BSA (2016)

""The Boy Scouts of America told CBS2 via email that allowing girls to join the organization would go against the group's original charter, created in 1916.

 

'The Boy Scouts of America was chartered by Congress in 1916 to serve boys and young men across the nation through the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts programs,' the organization said in a statement.

 

The organization says to change the standard Boy Scout program would 'go outside the bounds' of their charter." [emphasis added]

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

I "split" the "Quality Control" responses to a new topic. Sorry for the confusion and clumsiness on my part.

 

 

And I split off Tampa Turtle's parents and AT hike conundrum.

 

 

Actually I split if off as a separate topic. I had to do it one response at a time. Much more difficult than spinning off topics in previous software. Or maybe I am just doing it the hard way?

 

Breaking up is hard to do!

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Tampa Turtle]

9 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

 

The very presence of adults tends to interfere with youth leadership.   Their presence should be minimized to the number required for safety and even then they should be physically located as far away as that safety function allows.  Boy Scouting is a "small" team of boys functioning as independently as practicable.

 

"We have met the enemy and they is us". I am as guilty as anyone else and while trying to be helpful short-circuited what was occurring organically. 

[Hawkwin]

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

 

 

Hawkwin, even assuming your interpretation of the words that you cite, which I absolutely reject, you seem to wish to set aside these words of the Bylaws that precede, both in position and in effect, the words that you quote:

 

 

 

I don't set them aside, I simply point out in the same document you quote, BSA eventfully defines the classes of membership. You are welcome to reject my interpretation but the document speaks for itself. If your quoted section prohibits girls in any capacity, then BSA would never have been legally allowed to have female Venturers.

 

 

 

 

[TAHAWK]

5 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

I don't set them aside, I simply point out in the same document you quote, BSA eventfully defines the classes of membership. You are welcome to reject my interpretation but the document speaks for itself. If your quoted section prohibits girls in any capacity, then BSA would never have been legally allowed to have female Venturers.

 

 

I read what you quote.  While the language that you quote does mention females in Venturing, where in the "classes of membership" does it mention female Cubs, Webelos, or Boy Scouts?  That would be nowhere.  Instead, the language that you quote includes: "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys."

 

If the language said "boys or girls" it would be void as contrary to the Charter, as, arguably, is the language about female Venturers.  The last is not a result that I would favor, but it's not up to me.  It will probably end up in the courts, which is unfortunate.  Another inept move by National.

 

5 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Hawkwin]

Just now, TAHAWK said:

I read what you quote.  While the language that you quote does mention females in Venturing, where in the "classes of membership" does it mention female Cubs, Webelos, or Boy Scouts?  That would be nowhere.  Instead, the language that you quote includes: "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys."

 

If the language said "boys or girls" it would be void as contrary to the Charter, as, arguably, is the language about female Venturers.  The last is not a result that I would favor, but it's not up to me.  It will probably end up in the courts, which is unfortunate.  Another inept move by National.

 

 

 

Tahawk, do you acknowledge that Venturing was not a part of BSA when this document was originally created?

 

If so, then do you also acknowledge that the document can be changed over the decades and centuries and that it has been changed to include coed Venturing as well as many other changes?

 

If so, then can you also acknowledge that simply because it does not state that "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys and girls" currently, that the document could be changed to state that in the future?

 

I am confident that your interpretation that female Venturers voids the charter is incorrect as I am also confident that this document can be reworded to include girls in other scouting entities. Again, you are welcome to disagree and I encourage you to exhaust all the legal remedies at your disposal if you feel so strongly. My confident assumption is that if you had legal standing, such would have already been challenged with the inclusion of coed Venturing decades ago - either in the courts or via internal process to challenge changes to the Charter and Bylaws further up in this same document.

 

 

 

[TAHAWK]

4 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

 

Tahawk, do you acknowledge that Venturing was not a part of BSA when this document was originally created?

Absolutely.  Nor Cubbing.

Quote

If so, then do you also acknowledge that the document can be changed over the decades and centuries and that it has been changed to include coed Venturing as well as many other changes?

Yes.  The codified laws of the United States, of which the Charter is part, can be changed by Act of Congress or effectively overruled by a judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States.  The Board of the B.S.A. is neither and cannot change the Charter.

If so, then can you also acknowledge that simply because it does not state that "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys and girls" currently, that the document could be changed to state that in the future?

 

I am confident that your interpretation that female Venturers voids the charter is incorrect as I am also confident that this document can be reworded to include girls in other scouting entities. Again, you are welcome to disagree and I encourage you to exhaust all the legal remedies at your disposal if you feel so strongly. My confident assumption is that if you had legal standing, such would have already been challenged with the inclusion of coed Venturing decades ago - either in the courts or via internal process to challenge changes to the Charter and Bylaws further up in this same document.

 

I think there are more important problems than unhappiness with more female youth members.  BSA has had them for twenty years, and the sky didn't fall.  I lived through the dire predictions when we first allowed female commissioned Scouters.  (Much ado about nothing.).  I myself am not upset and just wonder how BSA's inept national leadership leadership will  handle it.  They are already reversing field., not even counting their statement just last your that they had no power to admit females into Scouting or Cubbing.   But someone will sue, testing the baseless confidence that BSA was wrong about the law in 2016 but right in 2017.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by TAHAWK
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