OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

[HelpfulTracks]

The nominating committee is appoint by Michel Surbaugh - and he keeps the secret list of names in his safe, inserted in between the pages of his copy of Jedi Mind Tricks for Dummies..

Edited November 26, 2017 by HelpfulTracks

[Eagle94-A1]

The people to be appointed to the nominating committee have to be approved by the SE on the council level, and both the SE, or is designate, and the DE.

 

When I was a DE, my SE would not allow any of the folks suggested on the district nominating committee, and as a result we didn't have one. Everyone on the list for positions were selected by the SE.

[RememberSchiff]

And the Nominating Committee?

My understanding...

 

At Council level,  the Council President appoints, with the approval of the Executive Board, active members to serve as the Nominating Committee. The Council Scout Executive (CSE) serves on said Executive Board but has no vote.

 

The CSE serves at the pleasure of the Executive Board.

 

Another interesting aspect about unanimous votes is the quorums can be just a third, 10%, or even 5% depending on the Council  bylaws and state law.

 

Confusing yes and not to say the Council political reality may differ from its bylaws, just like units.   

Edited November 26, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[MattR]

I wonder if the Pope gets 41 pages of comments when he makes a decision. Probably a lot more.

[RememberSchiff]

I wonder if the Pope gets 41 pages of comments when he makes a decision. Probably a lot more.

 

I suspect George Lucas gets even more.

[HelpfulTracks]

A few comments from a former pro.

 

1) While the council president selectes the nominating committee, the Scout Executive (SE) wields enormous power behind the scenes. I've seen  good people who were proposed for council level position, but because they were not 'Yes Men" and the SE said they would be a bad choice.  Even when those of us in the field wanted someone in particular. We currently have someone who would like to fill a district Key 3 role, but will not be allowed to serve in that role due to the SE. Like Tahawk, that position has been vacant for 2+ years.

 

2) While national does not control who is on district committees, the SE and DE do indeed play a large role.  I know I was under pressure to get rid of some folks. While some I was able to keep, others were not put on the slate of candidates per the SE. Got around it by having the district chairman appoint them into position.

 

3) Do not know about the legal side, but do know that what DavidCO said happen in Chicago did indeed happen. many folks here and elsewhere reported about it.

 

 

Yes, our SE and DE have a lot of influence (power) because we trust them, mine have earned that. However, if they were constantly steering us wrong, standing in the way of progress or subverting the by-laws they would have far far less power. Not to mention would likely run into so many legal firestorms it would be impossible for him to function.

[NJCubScouter]

I wonder if the Pope gets 41 pages of comments when he makes a decision. Probably a lot more.

41 pages, but only about two-thirds of it has been on the subject of the thread.

[Eagle94-A1]

Yes, our SE and DE have a lot of influence (power) because we trust them, mine have earned that. However, if they were constantly steering us wrong, standing in the way of progress or subverting the by-laws they would have far far less power. Not to mention would likely run into so many legal firestorms it would be impossible for him to function.

 

My SE did NOT have the trust of those in the field. Best example of that was when he finally left.  folks were throwing champagne parties to celebrate.  He was able to maintain being SE, and not get removed from his position, because he got "Yes Men" to be in key council positions.  Those who opposed him were eventually removed from the council executive board.  Funny thing is that when we got a new SE, those who were removed from the board got reinstated over time.

 

One thing I learned being in 5 different councils and under a bunch of pros; every situation is different and every person is different. There wil be those who manipulate the system to get what they want.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Eagle94-A1

[Eagle94-A1]

Forgot to add, there are ways to permanently remove and intimidate opposition. My SE had one long time volunteer permanently removed from the BSA when he opposed the SE and some of his decisions. This act intimidated some of the opposition. It also caused some to feel hopeless, as if nothing could be done to get things back on track.

 

When the new SE showed up, he cleaned house real quick.

[WisconsinMomma]

Ugh. I remember being blindsided by that 1988 decision. The BSA had won in the courts (1986, 1987) and it seemed the BSA was going to continue as a male-only program. But fewer men, particularly former scouts, were stepping up  and instead of determining the problem(s) and fixing them, the BSA sought female adult leaders.

 

In retrospect, I will say that having female leaders has not hurt the BSA.  A female Scoutmaster may be good or bad, just as a male might be. 

 

I'll be starting as Cubmaster for our Pack this month and I'm looking forward to it.   My Wood Badge course director is female, she had an incredible, hard working team and the program was thoughtfully planned and well executed.  

Edited November 27, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[Stosh]

What works for the program isn't always what works for the consumer.  If a single mom is interested in a male role model for her son, having a female leader doesn't meet her needs.  Instead of tweaking the program, define it and then let the consumer decide if it's what they want.  If the consumer doesn't what what is offered, it's not the fault of the consumer.

[WisconsinMomma]

Huh?

 

If a single mom is intent on having a male role model for her son, she has many places to seek out and find a role model.  Or maybe, her son will find his own role models, hopefully positive ones.  A troop with a female SM may have male ASMs or other dads around.   Or she may find another troop or a male role model through sports, school or other activities and relationships. 

 

I haven't seen anything in Scouting about providing male role models as a major purpose of the organization. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[cocomax]

I would love to see what would happen if BSA had 100% female leadership top to bottom and all the youth in the program were girls.

 

Maybe, the future of BSA is female.

 

With 90% of all girls expressing interest in joining a group like BSA who knows?

[RememberSchiff]

Ugh. I remember being blindsided by that 1988 decision. The BSA had won in the courts (1986, 1987) and it seemed the BSA was going to continue as a male-only program. But fewer men, particularly former scouts, were stepping up  and instead of determining the problem(s) and fixing them, the BSA sought female adult leaders.

 

 

In retrospect, I will say that having female leaders has not hurt the BSA.  A female Scoutmaster may be good or bad, just as a male might be. 

 

I'll be starting as Cubmaster for our Pack this month and I'm looking forward to it.   My Wood Badge course director is female, she had an incredible, hard working team and the program was thoughtfully planned and well executed.  

 

That 1988 decision made me first aware of some of National's oddities and I would be reminded of them several times over the years.

 

1. National believes they can have it both ways in all things. The nod and wink. They will open the door a crack and say that's okay, that's an exception. Sure enough, a few years later that exception is argued away because the door was opened in the first place. Female scoutmasters is okay so why not female scouts. This can be seen in membership, advancement, safety, and disability issues. Is this good, bad, contradictory, wasteful, odd, foolish, all, or something else?

 

2. National or Council will fight a protracted and expensive legal battle, win in the court, and then cave on their winning decision in the light of bad publicity.

 

3. National has no clue about publicity, advertising, scouting opinion, public opinion.

 

I will stop there.

 

Speaking of female membership in the BSA when did National first open the door a crack? IMHO, it was when Den Chiefs were replaced by Den Mothers in Cub Scouts.

 

In 1930 when Cubbing began, the original concept was to have a Boy Scout in charge of the Den.  His title was Den Chief.

 

By 1932, it was recognized that the Den Chief needed the assistance of an adult and the Den Mother became an official part of the program as a co-leader with the Den Chief.  By the mid-1930's, it was evident that dens with a Den Mother functioned much better than those with only a Den Chief.  In 1936, BSA approved the optional registration of Den Mothers.

 

https://www.sageventure.com/history/cub/DM.html

 

My $0.01

Edited November 27, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Tampa Turtle]

Huh?

 

If a single mom is intent on having a male role model for her son, she has many places to seek out and find a role model.  Or maybe, her son will find his own role models, hopefully positive ones.  A troop with a female SM may have male ASMs or other dads around.   Or she may find another troop or a male role model through sports, school or other activities and relationships. 

 

I haven't seen anything in Scouting about providing male role models as a major purpose of the organization. 

 

In my limited Scouter career this has been mentioned to me at least four times by single mothers of boys as a primary reason they put their son in scouts.