OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

[WisconsinMomma]

Gender has everything to do with it. There are women and girls who become highly agitated when confronted by men. They feel it is demeaning to be in a subordinate role to a man.

There are also men who feel superior to women and are demeaning to them.  It goes both ways. 

 

When the girls come in, the male chauvinists can get out. 

 

Most men and most women are reasonable.  

Edited November 21, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[David CO]

When the girls come in, the male chauvinists can get out.  

 

This is the third time that you have suggested that other people get out of scouting. Give it a rest.

[qwazse]

There are also men who feel superior to women and are demeaning to them.  It goes both ways. 

 

When the girls come in, the male chauvinists can get out. 

 

Most men and most women are reasonable.  

 

Explain to me again why I should dismiss a scouter who may be, for example, my best shooting instructor, because he has a chip on his shoulder about the opposite sex? If this is going to work, we are all going to have to put up with each other's rough edges.

 

My boys and my daughter had to learn skills from folks who voiced views that Mrs. Q. and I disagreed with. And sometimes what was said was objectively demeaning. I asked the kids to tune out the noise and respect who did the work. They are better adults for it. No regrets.

[WisconsinMomma]

I agree that working with difficult people can make a person stronger.  But, it's not always a blessing or educational.  Let's be real that bullying, intimidation and other un-Scoutlike behaviors happen.

 

I would never say that you should dismiss anyone, unless their behavior violates a code of conduct.  That's not the point.

 

If a person thinks that girls earning Eagle will make the honor worthless, or that a difficult female is worse than a difficult male, or that a man being treated badly is worse than a woman being treated badly, or that a man's work or education is more important or valuable than a woman's work or education, or a male's opinions and enjoyment are more important and valuable than a female's, etc. etc. etc.... then that person is going to have some issues to work through as the program changes.

 

Now, seriously, most people in Scouting are absolutely wonderful, most people in day to day life are easy to work with or at least tolerable, but --- there are a very very few, rare people who are very very difficult and horrible to deal with.  I have met very domineering, sexist men, and very manipulative women.  Either gender can wreak havoc on the program.  Girls are not going to be inherently worse than boys.  

Edited November 21, 2017 by WisconsinMomma

[Stosh]

As I posted in my original comment about the gal's choice of wardrobe, one will notice it was my FEMALE ASM who handled the situation and that was after we had discussed it.  We both agreed it would be better if SHE handled it. 

 

Yes, one's sex has a direct affect on each and every situation in a co-ed group.  It has nothing to do with bullying or condescending comments

 

Prancy Susie goes home and says: "MRS. Smith berated me about my clothing in front of everyone at camp."  Mom will probably ask if what she was wearing and how she was wearing it was appropriate.

 

On the other hand she says, "MR. Stosh berated me about my clothing in front of everyone at camp."  Now we're talking at least a nasty phone call to the SE.  I wouldn't touch that situation with a 10' pole.  Even females can end a scouter's career, probably faster and more effectively than a male.  Yes, women are just as chauvinistic as men.  The term chauvinistic isn't reserved just for men.  Sorry, but the door swings both ways. 

[WisconsinMomma]

We might have to meditate on whether "Prancy Susie" is the right way to refer to a female Scout. 

 

How did this situation turn out in real life? 

[Stosh]

I did not come up with the Prancy title for this gal.

 

The situation was brought up to me by my female ASM who used this term to describe the girl's actions in front of the boys.  She asked me my advice on how to approach a member of a different unit.  Does she go to the girl's leaders or just handle the situation.  I suggested she address the issue directly with the girl and I would back her up.  We concurred that it should be a female scouter confronting the girl.

 

The girl went back to her camp and came back dressed appropriately and sat quietly in the crowd with her unit.  Nothing more was said about it.  I did make the comment to the Crew leaders about how they all looked good in their Venturing uniforms before they departed home.  I was looking at the girl at the time. 

 

It was a delicate situation that turned out well.  I credit it to an understanding ASM and 45+ years working with co-ed youth groups.  The only time I would have done differently if there were no female leaders around and I was the Pastor of a church youth group.  Even then I would have had adult female youth workers with me, AND the girls in that environment would never have been dong what this girl was doing in the first place.

[HelpfulTracks]

Gender dynamics already exist in Scouting, as we have coed Crews and female Scouters.

 

In my experience neither gender has a monopoly on drama, I have seen it from male and female, from youth and adults.

 

What has changed is the outlook on integrity. Years ago, a person that was seen has having high integrity was given the benefit of doubt. They were innocent until proven otherwise. Unfortunately, a few, and too many, used that position to take advantage of others. So now the pendulum has swung and benefit of doubt is given less freely. Worse, if they are proven innocent, the damage has already been done.

 

Perhaps even worse, too many have staked out a position of judgement based on their point of view, be it political, issue advocacy or something else dear to them. Facts and truth fall by the wayside, guilt or innocence is predetermined based on an individuals perspective rather than facts and truth.

 

It does make for a dangerous waters. It does make one question their resolve to stick with programs like BSA, why risk it?

 

But today's current climate makes BSA all that more important. Most Scouters I know very much believe in the tenets of Scouting, they take the Oath and Law seriously. Instilling those values in the next generation is more important than ever. I have yet to see an organization that is able to do that better than BSA.

 

Even with the risk inherent in dealing with youth and possible untrue accusations, are we risking more than our friends in the military, police, first responders or the medical field? They put their life and health on the line to protect us, keep us safe and alive. As important as our reputations are to leading a productive life, we are not putting our actual life on the line.

 

I cannot, and would not, fault anyone who decides that putting their reputation at risk is too much to ask, and decides they can no longer be a Scout leader. However, instilling character and integrity in the next generation, showing our youth a better way and giving them opportunities to succeed, helping create a better society are all important tasks that we perform as Scout leaders. So I hope before anyone blows taps on their Scouting career they take stock in what they have contributed to a better society and what they can still contribute. Hopefully, the benefits outweigh the risk. 

[Stosh]

There are many of us that have already sailed these treacherous waters many times.  But there has always been plenty of maps and support in those processes to help minimize the risks.  BSA does not have a sound track record on that process.  Sure they have worked many years on a declining co-ed program called Exploring/Venturing, but back in the 1970's when Exploring went co-ed there were a ton of problems.  I worked two years in that program in a Council setting, organizing these groups.  It was pretty much running barefoot through broken glass.  I was 20 at the time and weathered a lot of storms and learned a lot of lessons.

 

Times have changed.....  But so have I.  Do I really want to go back and do it all over again in a far different world of today?

 

Hap Pigsley, a motivational speaker on industrial safety once said out of 330 risky behaviors, one will get away with it 300 times, but 29 of those times will result in injury and one on average will result in death.  He then held out a large jar of candy to the audience and said, help yourself.  There's 330 pieces of candy in there.

 

How many times is one going to reach into the jar knowing and having experienced the problems that lie ahead?  I am currently grooming one of my ASM's to take over the troop.  There's no way I'm going to let 45+ years of a good scouting career go down the toilet on the word of some angry kid.

[HelpfulTracks]

There are many of us that have already sailed these treacherous waters many times.  But there has always been plenty of maps and support in those processes to help minimize the risks.  BSA does not have a sound track record on that process.  Sure they have worked many years on a declining co-ed program called Exploring/Venturing, but back in the 1970's when Exploring went co-ed there were a ton of problems.  I worked two years in that program in a Council setting, organizing these groups.  It was pretty much running barefoot through broken glass.  I was 20 at the time and weathered a lot of storms and learned a lot of lessons.

 

Times have changed.....  But so have I.  Do I really want to go back and do it all over again in a far different world of today?

 

Hap Pigsley, a motivational speaker on industrial safety once said out of 330 risky behaviors, one will get away with it 300 times, but 29 of those times will result in injury and one on average will result in death.  He then held out a large jar of candy to the audience and said, help yourself.  There's 330 pieces of candy in there.

 

How many times is one going to reach into the jar knowing and having experienced the problems that lie ahead?  I am currently grooming one of my ASM's to take over the troop.  There's no way I'm going to let 45+ years of a good scouting career go down the toilet on the word of some angry kid.

 

As I said I cannot and will not fault your for making that personal decision. I will thank you or all you have done and continue to do for Scouting.

 

All the YPT and policies in the world are no silver bullet, there are inherent risk involved in dealing with people of all ages. Today's cultural climate seems to be even more loaded with land mines. I just hope more Scouters than not are willing to navigate the mine field.

[Stosh]

You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din! 

 

The ignorance of youth is a wonderful thing.

 

The wisdom of age allows one to know exactly where the land mines are located. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Stosh

[HelpfulTracks]

You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din! 

 

The ignorance of youth is a wonderful thing.

 

The wisdom of age allows one to know exactly where the land mines are located. 

 

LOL! I am not youthful anymore, but I still cling to my youth exuberance (AKA ignorance).  

[DuctTape]

As an aside, I have not seen the film Gunga Din in many years, and it has been even longer since I read any Kipling whatsoever. It saddens me when I reference it, and no one knows what the heck I am talking about, yet they get the Adam Sandler, Waterboy references.

 

Anyway, thanks Stosh for reminding me about a great poem and film, and know that at least I got the reference.

[Eagledad]

As an aside, I have not seen the film Gunga Din in many years, and it has been even longer since I read any Kipling whatsoever. It saddens me when I reference it, and no one knows what the heck I am talking about, yet they get the Adam Sandler, Waterboy references.

Anyway, thanks Stosh for reminding me about a great poem and film, and know that at least I got the reference.

Sadly I don’t understand the waterboy reference.

 

Barry

[David CO]

Sadly I don’t understand the waterboy reference.

 

Barry

 

The heroic character, Gunga Din, was a water bearer for the British army in India in a famous Rudyard Kipling poem.

 

Adam Sandler played a comic character, a water boy for a football team, in the more recent movie, The Waterboy.

 

One of these was a great work of art. Can you guess which? Anyone? Anyone?

Edited November 22, 2017 by David CO