OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

[MattR]

Back Pack, let's say the BSA was reading this forum while some magic fairy dust dropped on their heads and they said "Hey, we gotta get this young man to be the first CSB (Chief Scout Boy) so we can get back to our roots" and you implement your plan as described previously regarding allowing girls. So you have a vote and 40% of the boys don't want girls, 10% do, and 50% are too lazy to vote or don't care. If majority rules then there will be no girls allowed, end of discussion. My guess is you'd be happy with that. Just for the fun of it, let's say the vote went the other way, 26% want girls and 24% don't. Would you abide by it? Or would you quit in disgust? Based on your previous comments my guess is you'd finish eagle and split as fast as you can.

 

If so, this is a really good example of what our founding fathers were trying to create. Look at the Constitution. Someone once said that democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to eat for lunch. Hence, we're not a democracy. Giving a say to the minority is an important idea. That's what a republic does. You don't want a solution where nearly half the people leave in disgust because things didn't go the way they wanted. So, as CSB, how would you handle this? If you make the decision you're likely to get a whole lot of scouts angry. If you don't make the decision but put it up for a vote the same thing will happen. You already said you'd take it to the scouts to figure out what to do so something has to be done. It's really not much different than the SPL deciding what everyone in the troop will be doing. Should the SPL be doing that? Should the CSB get to make this decision? I hate to say it but there aren't too many options.

 

But let's get back to your troop. You said most of the scouts do not want their sisters around. Just to make it harder, let's just say that the sisters are in the same troop. The good news is the sisters don't want their brothers around as well. The boys/girls do not want the girls/boys at their campsite. What's a solution here?  As you said in a previous post, you either believe in the patrol method or you don't. How can the patrol method be used to solve this problem? How do you use the patrol method to solve any differences of opinion in what to do? You don't have the SPL decide. You let the patrols form the way they want and you let them decide. As the SPL, much less the CSB, you don't decide. You let the scouts, in each patrol, solve their own problems.

 

Is this really much different than what the BSA's old men came up with? Each CO decides what they want.

[ianwilkins]

I’d say 90% or more of the guys I know under 18 in Boy Scouts don’t want girls or family anywhere near their Troop.

 

I think the scouts in my troop feel a lot like yours.

I remember grumbles and threats to walk away when the UK moved over to co-ed in scout troops, some left, some stayed to see how it panned out, and it turned out that when what they did at scouts didn't change, girls weren't really a problem, they were just scouts after all. Most of it was fear of change. Of course, there's survivor bias here, maybe there's vast swathes of boys sat in their rooms refusing to join scouts because its got girls in. No way of telling really.

Edited November 1, 2017 by ianwilkins

[HelpfulTracks]

Since I’ve been paying attention to bsa politics I have seen very few times where what they say is what they do. So I don’t think I will believe what they say now about girls in scouts until is really see it.

Just curious, do you have any examples?

[Back Pack]

You asked me to make a decision. Have a referendum and abide by the result. Put each scout on their honor that it’s them making the decision and not their helicopter parents. But I would have to make the decision because that’s how my parents raise me. That’s what I learned as jasm and SPL. You are trained to make decisions and execute them That’s the reason all the adults volunteer in scouting right? For us to take charge? I think many adult are actually in it for themselves rather than to let youth ead but that’s a another issue.

 

As csb I would ask another question, why change at all? What’s broken that adding girls fixes?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Back Pack

[Back Pack]

Just curious, do you have any examples?

If what I have read here and researched recently is true the membership changes in the last few years were against membership wishes but voted on by their representatives at higher levels. Yes I get that it’s not necessarily a representative government type system in bsa, but maybe that’s the problem. No one feels accountable to we the people who are paying the dues. Being honest paying that additional money hurt this year and I’m not sure I will do it next year. Many guys and girls in the crew are tired of the politics. It’s easier to go to the student union and rent gear and just hang out and camp together.

[RememberSchiff]

Voting security (no Russians  ),  logistics, and cost aside ... Could you see OA running the vote?

 

When you say membership would vote, is this every Cub Scout and Boy Scout? Is it their Scout parents? Is it young and old scouters in those units?

 

The region(s) with the most voters will decide. My understanding that would be the West - Utah, California, Texas... What if New England sees their votes are pointless and spins off their own Scout organization?  What happens to CO's who feel they should decide membership of units they own?

 

Would you revisit past controversial membership decisions? 

 

More deja vu - 60's high school civics.

[HelpfulTracks]

If what I have read here and researched recently is true the membership changes in the last few years were against membership wishes but voted on by their representatives at higher levels. Yes I get that it’s not necessarily a representative government type system in bsa, but maybe that’s the problem. No one feels accountable to we the people who are paying the dues. Being honest paying that additional money hurt this year and I’m not sure I will do it next year. Many guys and girls in the crew are tired of the politics. It’s easier to go to the student union and rent gear and just hang out and camp together.

Much of what you read here is opinion, including mine, and not always tied to facts. The same is true in many sources online. I would urge you to read many sources and understand the perspective and bias from those sources. It takes longer to figure things out, but it will be a better formed opinion.

 

You are correct that some opposed recent changes in policy, I would even assume most were against them. Some of those changes, regardless of if I agree with them, I can understand the reasoning for those changes. We all like to try to make decisions as black and white as possible, but I can assure you there were people who cast votes on those changes for very different reasons. Just look at this forum, people take the same side on a debate for very different reason. They see the same results with very different goals and outcomes. Others don’t trust that the policy will remain as it is currently. It may not. It may be that some already have plans to change, while others are steadfast in what it says now. If it changes is that a lie? Most likely not. As time and circumstances change so do policies.

 

Making changes has a cost, as does not making a change. The increase in registration fees is, in part, dues to past decisions and the legal liability that came with them. That stinks but it is a fact of the society in which we live.

 

I know this much, with all the changes I still believe in the aims and methods of Scouting, I still believe and teach the Oath and Law. Which is why I asked the question in another thread about modeling behavior. As you said, your opinions, at least in part, are informed by what you read here. As adult leaders we need to model behavior and we don’t always model the best, particularly when we label others as liars and hypocrits.

Edited November 1, 2017 by HelpfulTracks

[Back Pack]

Voting security (no Russians  ),  logistics, and cost aside ... Could you see OA running the vote?

 

When you say membership would vote, is this every Cub Scout and Boy Scout? Is it their Scout parents? Is it young and old scouters in those units?

 

The region(s) with the most voters will decide. My understanding that would be the West - Utah, California, Texas... What if New England sees their votes are pointless and spins off their own Scout organization?  What happens to CO's who feel they should decide membership of units they own?

 

Would you revisit past controversial membership decisions? 

 

More deja vu - 60's high school civics.

Youth vote. No parents or adults. Honor system. Or do it at the unit level like OA. I’d trust them more the parents. The point is the boys would decide. It’s their organization. The whole Boy Scout system is supposed to be around two key aims: character and citizenship. What could be more leader like than to make such decisions. And no I would not revisit old decisions unless they strengthened the program and the referendum voted for it. As my dad says, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. I am afraid we are stuck with this mess and the problems coming. I just wanted you guys to know that the youth know what happened and in my unit we are not okay with it.

[RememberSchiff]

Youth vote. No parents or adults. Honor system. Or do it at the unit level like OA. I’d trust them more the parents. The point is the boys would decide. It’s their organization. The whole Boy Scout system is supposed to be around two key aims: character and citizenship. What could be more leader like than to make such decisions. And no I would not revisit old decisions unless they strengthened the program and the referendum voted for it. As my dad says, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. I am afraid we are stuck with this mess and the problems coming. I just wanted you guys to know that the youth know what happened and in my unit we are not okay with it.

 

So ages 5 to 18, 5 to 21?

 

I know the scouts in my unit are split over girl members but I would bet a box of Clif bars they would vote membership for any boy regardless of religious belief or not. I could also see scouts voting who can be an adult leader.

 

Is this a pure democracy or a representative democracy? Who decides referendum items?

 

Would membership referendums be binding on ALL units, i.e., no local option.

 

The fun part for me as a scouter is the new boss is same as old boss.  I do not have a deciding vote with the existing system or your proposed system. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by RememberSchiff
More thoughts

[Hawkwin]

The point is the boys would decide. It’s their organization.

 

Just a guess but I think that would quickly result in the loss of the last G. I also think if the boys decided all aspects of membership, you would quickly find the organization unrecognizable from the one you originally joined.

 

Young adults rarely have the perspective to see the forest for the trees. If my son, at age 11 was given a vote on everything, my guess is that he would vote for anything that would make Eagle easier and quicker to earn. I keep trying to tell him it isn't all about Eagle but he lacks the maturity yet to understand that.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Hawkwin

[MattR]

As csb I would ask another question, why change at all? What’s broken that adding girls fixes?

You'd have to ask a lot of people to get a good view of that question, which by the way is a good question.

 

Here's my answer. The patrol method, for lack of a better term, is broken. The whole point of scouts is to get scouts to make their own decisions. The youth have very little opportunity to make decisions in their life. It's worse now than it used to be. Scouting is more important than it used to be and most people have no idea what it's about. As you've implied before, many adults don't understand how it's supposed to work. Unfortunately, most scouts know less. One important aspect is that decisions need to be pushed down to the point where everyone agrees. Certainly the adults should be making fewer decisions but even the scouts have a big problem with this. You yourself said as SPL that you're trained to make decisions. Have you considered the possibility that you were preventing the PLs from making their own decisions? How about the dictatorial PL making decisions for his patrol that his patrol doesn't like? Unfortunately, I've noticed that adults that used to be SPL have the hardest time letting scouts decide.

 

So, how do girls help this? It is only indirectly related. One problem that those that make the decisions have is they don't understand the differences between the scouts. Different scouts want to do different things. Girls would make that more visible. If the girls really want to do different things then they can make their own patrols and do their own thing. One of the things I had to learn as SM was to decide what problems were mine to solve and what were the scouts to solve. What helped was realizing that problems are really good training. I've said before to never waste a good problem by solving it myself.

 

So let me turn your question around. What is it about girls that the boys can't deal with? Why do you have to make that decision? If the scouts are making their own decisions then what's wrong with having girls around? Why can't they sort it out? I'm not saying there aren't any. In fact I have my concerns with some moms, but it's not that much different than some dads. The only issue I can think of is that youth male brains turn to mush as soon as a girl walks in. Trust me, I was there once upon a time. Anything else?

[HelpfulTracks]

Back Pack - so you know, we are not ganging up on you. I think most here are very much youth-led in their actions. And believe it or not, we have all been in your sakes shoes and may have held similar beliefs of getting the old geezers out. In fact I wouldn’t mind seeing some changes in the organization myself. But what you proposed has consequences that some of us feel you are not seeing. You are clearly and active and passionate Scout that has joined a forum dominated by adults. I applaud you for that and coming here and arguing your opinions.

 

That said you are not the average Scout by evidence you are here. Frankly the adults are not average Scouters, as most don’t know about these forums and many who do don’t come here, read or post. That doesn’t make us smarter or more correct but it does show we are interested in learning from others. My point is, in your model I’m not sure how many Scouts would be willing to take on that responsibility. It is difficult enough to get Scouts to be SPL and PLs and carry out their duties.

Edited November 1, 2017 by HelpfulTracks

[CalicoPenn]

What? This doesn’t require hiring some New York advertising firm. You can ask a few simple questions with unique identifiers. Heck my dad says he already as do e a few of these on other issues. I highly doubt those were $15 a person. One user id per bsa member number. Winner gets to pick the rules. It’s better than having a bunch of old adults who think they know what boys want.

 

Selling Philmont it is.   The reason organizations like the BSA hires firms that do surveys and polls is because its more expensive to set it up and do it on their own.  You are advocating for the BSA to create a special survey database for approximately 2 million youth members.  They'll have to hire people to do so.    Survey Monkey isn't going to work.  They'll then have to hire people to track and interpret the results.  Now we're up to about $25 per Scout.  No kidding - surveying 2 million people will cost millions - multiple millions.   That's why no one surveys everyone (and no, those internet snap polls don't count - they're just counters - they are meaningless) and instead surveys a limited number of people.  Do you know that the unemployment number we hear about every month is based on a poll of just 66,000 people a month?  Just 66,000 people to represent approximately 200 million citizens over the age of 16.  That's how surveys and polls are done.

 

And if your going to survey all youth, does that include Tiger cubs?  Do you think a 7 year old has enough of a grasp on the world to make a decision?  Heck, most 7-year olds don't have a grasp on whats for lunch until its lunchtime.

 

I respect your zeal - but zeal often slams in to the roadblock called reality - and usually loses.

[Back Pack]

Guys I don’t profess to have all the answers. Heck I can only speak for me and maybe give insight in to what my friends are thinking. I feel a bit like the only coed at a frat party being the one of a few recent Eagles on this thread and getting all this attention. I’d love to reply to everyone and really get deeper in to this but I’ve got way too much studying to do.

 

My model would be cubs do family stuff. That’s how it worked when I was in cubs anyway. Boy Scouts is for boys. Venturing is coed. Adults drink coffee, pay bills, oversee safety and let us fail and make mistakes. Stop running merit badge colleges, adult patrols and taking over our events. Let us lead the way we know how. Limit teaching to after we make the mistake. Be patient when we struggle or are being stupid. Try to remember what you were like before you got old, responsible and over thought everything.

 

Late for psychology. There’s a joke in there somewhere.

[HelpfulTracks]

School work first!

 

We will be here and always ready to bloviate.