OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

[Hawkwin]

Clarke Greene weighs in:

 

BSA Separate But Equal (SPE) Plan for Girls

 

http://scoutmastercg.com/bsa-separate-but-equal-plan-for-girls/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=FeedBlitzRss&utm_content=BSA+Separate+But+Equal+Plan+for+Girls

 

I did not start out as a believer in co-ed Scouting. For most of the last 35 years I’ve been a volunteer with the Boy Scouts of America the status quo worked fine for me, co-ed Scouting was a big unknown, and being unknown it was something to resist.

Three Things That Changed My Mind.

First – during a week-long international Scouting trip several years ago (and two more since) I watched co-ed Scouting at work. Almost every other Scouting association in the world is co-ed. Most of us haven’t seen co-ed Scouting in action on that scale. It wasn’t complicated, a Scout is a Scout, it was that simple.

Second – I’ve talked to Scouters from many different parts of the world at length about co-ed Scouting. I probed for problems or regrets, I didn’t find any.

Third –  and most important, nearly six years ago our first grandchild was born. Before long she’ll be old enough to have the same experiences and advantages Scouting afforded her Eagle Scout father.

----------

 

More at the link. I recommend reading all of it as it doesn't end the same way it began. The title gives you a hint.

 

I feel a little guilty for tossing this small grenade and then not adding my own comments but I am glad I did wait as it allowed me time to better form my own opinion of his position of SBE.

 

As a supporter of the change to include girls, I don't need full inclusion. I would be satisfied with a program that is indeed, SPE, or even not quite equal.

 

I do not  accept his analogy or comparison to racial rights as it pertains to SPE as no one is entitled to the benefits of BSA where as everyone is entitled to a quality education. Education is a Right.

 

Being a scout is not a Right so a change that results in something less than SPE is not only legal, it is and should be acceptable. I can understand why supporters of inclusion may want complete coed (I get it, and would probably prefer it to), but I neither need it nor do girls need it in order to enjoy the benefits of BSA.

 

If the girls program is slightly different, if it is slightly "less", that is still better than no girls in BSA at all. I am a pragmatist. I'd rather my daughter be able to enjoy the benefits (even if that is only 90% of the benefits) of BSA than enjoy none at all and if keeping the programs single-gender vs coed helps BSA be more successful (by not running off all those that want single-gender options), then I am going to support that decision and oppose the idea of going full coed - even though I might personally support it.

[David CO]

I hold District and Council positions and I am Committee’s at both levels. I cannot and don’t give big money to any level of BSA. I give to FoS when I can and I designate that my United Way contribution at work go to the Council, but that is about it other than paying for my children’s activities (most of which they pay for via fundraising). Sadly, the way United Way is setup with our local Council, no one can even verify that my money gets to the Council.

 

In fact, Charter Organizations hold far more power than most of us on a Committee, they get a vote in Council business, via the CoR’s.

 

As for bloated salaries, I know the starting salaries for DE’s in my area is under $38k, about $13k less than the average for bachelor degree.on top of that they are working 60-80 hours a week.

 

To put that in perspective, the salary for a Catholic middle school teacher in my diocese maxes out under $38,000, and that is with a masters degree and over 20 years experience. A starting teacher gets about $22,000, with an additional $800 per season if he coaches in the evenings.

 

If you compare the execs salaries with those of other non-profit organizations in education and recreation, I think you will find that the SE's and DE's are paid much higher than their counterparts with similar degrees and experience.

 

I didn't say that the committees have much power. I said they had prestige. All the power is firmly in the hands of the execs. 

 

I was an IH. I know from experience that the Chartered Organizations' votes on the council don't amount to a hill of beans. The units have no power at council. In BSA, all the power is controlled by the execs.

Edited October 30, 2017 by David CO

[Tampa Turtle]

Hawkwin, I believe the perception will be that if by only the fact is IS separate it will be seen as slightly "less". It will be judged by the same yardstick as a Civil Right. I am not saying that it should be but that is how it will be by many people. The general public will see it much simpler than how BSA is trying to fiddle with it. 

 

I think the subsequent turbulence, if any, will be totally dependent on the demand.

[NJCubScouter]

If the girls program is slightly different, if it is slightly "less", that is still better than no girls in BSA at all. I am a pragmatist. I'd rather my daughter be able to enjoy the benefits (even if that is only 90% of the benefits) of BSA than enjoy none at all and if keeping the programs single-gender vs coed helps BSA be more successful (by not running off all those that want single-gender options), then I am going to support that decision and oppose the idea of going full coed - even though I might personally support it.

 

I think that if it is going to be separate, it HAS to be equal, 100%.  Separate but less-than-equal would be, among other things, a public relations disaster of epic proportions.

[qwazse]

I think that if it is going to be separate, it HAS to be equal, 100%.  Separate but less-than-equal would be, among other things, a public relations disaster of epic proportions.

Let's not delude ourselves.

 

It's hard enough to make the program equal for an 12 year old and 17 year old.

In parts of the country, the cultural expectations on a girl may overwhelm attempts at equality no matter if your CO insists on integration or segregation of the sexes.

 

What BSA can do for us -- and we ourselves -- is make sure the program resources are identical -- even if they are plastered with "boy" and "brotherhood". No bars lowered. It's up to boots on the ground to make it work. And, if that means acquiring different adult leaders for girls, that may or may not generate disparities.

 

No amount of speculation will tell us in advance.

[NJCubScouter]

Let's not delude ourselves.

 

It's hard enough to make the program equal for an 12 year old and 17 year old.

In parts of the country, the cultural expectations on a girl may overwhelm attempts at equality no matter if your CO insists on integration or segregation of the sexes.

 

What BSA can do for us -- and we ourselves -- is make sure the program resources are identical -- even if they are plastered with "boy" and "brotherhood". No bars lowered. It's up to boots on the ground to make it work. And, if that means acquiring different adult leaders for girls, that may or may not generate disparities.

 

No amount of speculation will tell us in advance.

 

I am not talking about speculation, and I am not talking about some local CO's and Scouters running the program differently from the way it is prescribed by National.  There has always been some of that and there probably always will be, regardless of whether any given program or unit is single-gender or mixed.

 

What I am talking about is what I think National should do when it prescribes the program for girls in the "Boy Scouts."  It should be identical.  Same ranks, same requirements, same merit badges, same POR's, same organizational structure, same Philmont, etc. etc. etc.  They have already said that girls will be able to earn Eagle, and I think it follows from that that the lower ranks and requirements must be the same as well.

 

If, on Day 1, there is still a reference to "brotherhood" in the Scout Handbook or some other publication, I don't see it as a big problem.  They make changes to the handbook just about every year, so they will clean up the few things that need to be cleaned up within a short time.  I hope that National will soon make clear what their timetable is.

[Hawkwin]

I think that if it is going to be separate, it HAS to be equal, 100%.  Separate but less-than-equal would be, among other things, a public relations disaster of epic proportions.

 

I'm not convinced of that.

 

The military has separate but equal requirements based on gender. Men and women do not have to perform to the same physical fitness standards. I understand that they do have to perform to the same standard for specialized roles - like Ranger*

 

If, for a very generic example, young women didn't have to hike as many miles as a young man, I would not think that such would necessarily lead to a disaster of epic proportions.

 

In addition, if there were different merit badges (not that I can think of any examples), then I also don't think it would be a disaster.

 

*Where I agree with you that it would be a disaster if they were to make obtaining Eagle any less challenging.

 

 

Again, my preference is that they be exactly the same but if they are not, I still think I can live with it. Either way, I plan to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see specifics.

[David CO]

Even all-boy units in the same town aren't equal. They don't have equal programs, facilities, or resources. Every troop is different.

 

So far, we haven't had complaints that one unit may have more of something than another. Units are allowed to compete with each other. I think this may change if the girls' unit ends up getting fewer donations and sales than the boys.

 

Are we going to end up with some sort of title 9 program in scouting?

[Hawkwin]

To put that in perspective, the salary for a Catholic middle school teacher in my diocese maxes out under $38,000, and that is with a masters degree and over 20 years experience. A starting teacher gets about $22,000, with an additional $800 per season if he coaches in the evenings.

 

 

David, I think you might be using some very old data.

 

Your profile states "Chicago area."

 

Starting salary for Chicago public schools is over $50,000 a year, not $22,000.

 

https://www.nctq.org/districtPolicy/contractDatabase/district.do?id=4

 

Coach pay varies based but a head coach gets an extra $6000 a year, not $800 (page 355).

 

https://www.nctq.org/docs/CTU_Contract_2015-2019_FINAL.pdf

 

 

Not winning lottery money but certainly better than poverty level.

 

 

 

Hawkwin

Married to a HS teacher that does extracurricular work

Edited October 30, 2017 by RememberSchiff
Added my vote to fix a mistake vote

[NJCubScouter]

If, for a very generic example, young women didn't have to hike as many miles as a young man, I would not think that such would necessarily lead to a disaster of epic proportions.

 

I'm not going to quibble about how big a disaster it would be, especially since this is all predictions anyway.  But I think it's a bad idea.  Five miles for boys, five miles for girls.

[cocomax]

It is very likely a Boy Lead troop will do things different than a Girl Lead troop, just because Boys and Girls like different things.  If the Boys and Girls both get to lead their troops and have the same scout requirements for rank then the Girls have equal opportunities.

 

The Boy Scout rank requires are not that hard, they just take time and lots of paper work. I see nothing in the requirements that a Girl could not do. 

[cocomax]

I'm not going to quibble about how big a disaster it would be, especially since this is all predictions anyway.  But I think it's a bad idea.  Five miles for boys, five miles for girls.

 

I am sure Girls can do 5 mile hikes, my 8 year old daughter can do 10 mile hikes with a back pack. I know a 71 year old scout master that has no problem doing 5 mile hikes with heavy pack.  So  11 to 17 year old girls interested in scouting should have no problem. 

 

Sadly, I do not know of any 30 to 50 year women involved in scouting that could do a 5 mile hike.  I was out with some Cub scouts doing a 3 mile day hike last month and I had slim young women in their 20's that had to quit after 0.6 miles, they were just done. I was shocked.   I am not sure where the girls are going to find adult women leaders that will be able to keep up with them on 5 mile hikes.

[walk in the woods]

FWIW, some of our members aren't waiting for the next program year. http://www.inforum.com/news/4351136-its-about-time-local-packs-welcome-girls-advance-2018-boy-scouts-inclusion-move

Edited October 30, 2017 by walk in the woods

[Tampa Turtle]

I am sure Girls can do 5 mile hikes, my 8 year old daughter can do 10 mile hikes with a back pack. I know a 71 year old scout master that has no problem doing 5 mile hikes with heavy pack.  So  11 to 17 year old girls interested in scouting should have no problem. 

 

Sadly, I do not know of any 30 to 50 year women involved in scouting that could do a 5 mile hike.  I was out with some Cub scouts doing a 3 mile day hike last month and I had slim young women in their 20's that had to quit after 0.6 miles, they were just done. I was shocked.   I am not sure where the girls are going to find adult women leaders that will be able to keep up with them on 5 mile hikes.

We had a Mom (prob about 40+)  join our AT Crew this summer and did 50+ miles over 4-1/2 days. Included 3,000' ascent in one morning. She said it was hard but did it. I have seen many, many Scouters who seem to struggle from walking to the parking area to Dining Hall. 

[HelpfulTracks]

To put that in perspective, the salary for a Catholic middle school teacher in my diocese maxes out under $38,000, and that is with a masters degree and over 20 years experience. A starting teacher gets about $22,000, with an additional $800 per season if he coaches in the evenings.

 

If you compare the execs salaries with those of other non-profit organizations in education and recreation, I think you will find that the SE's and DE's are paid much higher than their counterparts with similar degrees and experience.

 

I didn't say that the committees have much power. I said they had prestige. All the power is firmly in the hands of the execs. 

 

I was an IH. I know from experience that the Chartered Organizations' votes on the council don't amount to a hill of beans. The units have no power at council. In BSA, all the power is controlled by the execs.

 

I guess it is good to live in small(ish) town America. Starting salary here for teachers with bachelor degree is about the same as DE (withing $600) and just under your max. Granted that is still about $10K less than the average of all starting salary with BS/BA, but not nearly as poorly as they pay in Chicago apparently.

 

It is also good to see that our Council functions according to BSA bylaws and that CoR's are voting members of our committee. Not sure my positions offer me any additional prestige, but maybe the occasional thank you for stepping up to fill a job that needs to be done. I can live with that.

 

I am more thankful than ever that my wife talked me out of moving to Chicago when we married. I don't miss the colder winters either.