Hawkwin Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) True. Nobody is forcing CO's to recharter. Nobody is forcing members to re-register. Nobody is forcing donors to donate. Again, no one is forcing your den, pack, patrol, troop, CO, district or council to change. Why would you suggest or imply that you would stop donating to your all-boys Troop simply because a girl in an adjacent state earns her Tiger Badge? Why would you punish the scouts in your troop by removing your expertise from the system simply because a young woman [RS] earns a Eagle someplace else? What harm does it cause you and yours? Specifically? You might have assumptions about how things MIGHT change at some point in the future but right now, official word is you can remain just as "traditional" as you want to be. Seems nothing other than spiteful. This would be different, and I would feel differently, if they were forcing you to accept girls, but they are not. Edited October 13, 2017 by RememberSchiff Let's keep it classy when speaking of lassies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swilliams Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Reading some of the responses to this, both here and in other mediums, has been interesting but not in a good way. So many defeatist attitudes, and so little faith in our own boys. About a quarter of the responses from supposed scout leaders leave me wondering if the person understands their own scout law? If leaders head into this with the expectation that it won't work out, it probably won't. I'll do everything in my power to see that this happens in the best way possible, and thank heaven we have a scout master who feels the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cchoat Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The story was the same in our council. I have to believe our local council execs were lied to as well. They would not knowingly deceive us in this way. I have some connections in the upper realms of BSA, and am going to ask for an explanation of the lies we were told. I am confident this deception was orchestrated by national BSA leaders. Heads should roll over this and jobs should be lost. This kind of dishonesty is unbecoming of any organization, but especially the Boy Scouts of America. The same went on in my council. My CSE received a blast e-mail from national to all councils AFTER the public announcement (But not before the phone calls from concerned Scouters and the press) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashmaster Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Sure it already happens, but is it widespread? And intentional? In the rush to award girls the rank of Eagle Scout, there's going to be a taint of "her dad's the SM, her mom's the CC, and mom and dad were MBCs for most of the Eagle-required MBs." I am already hearing from long-time district advancement chairs who are worried. In order to not point fingers, I do this it is wide spread currently. Breaks my heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Seems nothing other than spiteful. Perhaps disenchanted is a better adjective. About a quarter of the responses from supposed scout leaders leave me wondering if the person understands their own scout law? Concepts like "Trustworthy", perhaps? Can anyone claim that national BSA leadership has been trustworthy during this entire process? No - they have been deliberately deceitful as many examples show. Or maybe "Loyal". Were national BSA leaders at all concerned with seeking the opinions and guidance of its most loyal long-term Scouters? No - they actively sought to sidestep those experienced individuals in favor of surveying "non-Scouting families" to provide a pretext of validation for their actions. But let's forget about all the volunteer Scouters who make this program work. Even council executives were kept in the dark. Given the process followed by national BSA leaders on this topic, the word betrayal is not too strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cchoat Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The story was the same in our council. I have to believe our local council execs were lied to as well. They would not knowingly deceive us in this way. I have some connections in the upper realms of BSA, and am going to ask for an explanation of the lies we were told. I am confident this deception was orchestrated by national BSA leaders. Heads should roll over this and jobs should be lost. This kind of dishonesty is unbecoming of any organization, but especially the Boy Scouts of America. According to my Council Exec, this issue was pushed by the National Volunteer Committee. Never heard of them. Who are they, how are they selected and do they really represent the average volunteer. Those are my questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numbersnerd Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 What harm does it cause you and yours? Specifically? You might have assumptions about how things MIGHT change at some point in the future but right now, official word is you can remain just as "traditional" as you want to be. I'm sure they thought the same thing in the UK when it changed there. Co-ed was a choice. Then it wasn't, rules changed again that said new units MUST be co-ed. And as such it isn't unreasonable to assume that at some point in the future all units will be forced to accept co-ed membership. So holding up other counties Scouting programs as examples makes the concern warranted. Additionally, those saying change is inevitable, just get used to it, by default must accept that further changes to the program are also likely and not scoff at those that opine so. Anything less is hypocrisy and intelllectually dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I am a District Commissioner and have already heard from two Scoutmasters that they will do "everything" they can {wink, wink} to help girls earn the rank of Eagle Scout ASAP. My fear is that in the rush to be the first girl to earn Eagle Scout (or be the first unit, district, council to have a girl earn Eagle Scout) many shortcuts will be taken during sign-offs and BoRs. We all know it will be a race to see who is first. What you will see is a different sort of race ... the rush among boys to get their Eagle finished before all the changes are implemented to accommodate girls in the program. This same thing happened back in the early 1970s when misguided BSA leadership decided to reprogram Scouting to appeal to urban families. Scouting had become too old-fashioned and needed modernization to match societal trends (sound familiar?). It infamously became known as 'taking the outing out of Scouting'. The Camping merit badge was actually eliminated as an Eagle requirement and replaced with bookish merit badges like Environmental Science and Personal Management! There was a frenzied rush to complete your Eagle under the old requirements. Following that, momentum dropped and it took 15 years to recover. Pay attention to the statistics starting in 1975 - see https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/01/number-of-eagle-scouts-per-year/ BTW: BSA membership also plummeted by 2.5 million people during that failed experiment before national BSA leadership was finally forced to admit their error and reverse course. Sadly, membership levels never recovered following that debacle. I was a Boy Scout during the 1970s, and received my Eagle in 1974. Some on this discussion thread may choose to characterize my viewpoints as spiteful or defeatist. I prefer the adjective "experienced". Scouting has been here before. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Did they storm out when Venturing allowed girls? Life evolves, no matter what it is, it evolves. Standing up for exclusion has been proven wrong in history over and over again. How many of you are asking Girl Scouts to include boys? They exclude but get a pass? Look people stand up for what they believe in. If you throw stones and call ridiculous people who leave scouting over this but support the guys protesting in the nfl you might want to rethink your thought process. Having a principle on something means drawing a line that you will not cross. To you it may seem arbitrary but to me it may mean something. The line these people drew was adding girls to a program for boys. That’s not excluding anyone anymore than your son’s sports team barring girls. It’s done for a reason. BSA does it, girls scouts do it and nearly every sport does it. Why? Because they recognize the differences between men and women. That’s not exclusionary that’s just fact. If standing up for exclusion had been proven wrong we’d have full integration of sports, schools, and other things where men and women are still separated. Clearly that hasn’t happened. We still have boys schools and girls schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashmaster Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 How many of you are asking Girl Scouts to include boys? They exclude but get a pass? Look people stand up for what they believe in. If you throw stones and call ridiculous people who leave scouting over this but support the guys protesting in the nfl you might want to rethink your thought process. Having a principle on something means drawing a line that you will not cross. To you it may seem arbitrary but to me it may mean something. The line these people drew was adding girls to a program for boys. That’s not excluding anyone anymore than your son’s sports team barring girls. It’s done for a reason. BSA does it, girls scouts do it and nearly every sport does it. Why? Because they recognize the differences between men and women. That’s not exclusionary that’s just fact. If standing up for exclusion had been proven wrong we’d have full integration of sports, schools, and other things where men and women are still separated. Clearly that hasn’t happened. We still have boys schools and girls schools. Actually when my daughter was a girl scout, we stopped after many years because I couldn't help, so yes I did. And girls can play on boys teams if the coaches allow it and they pass the same quality standards. Does it happen often, no. But is does happen, they are not excluded, that is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Actually when my daughter was a girl scout, we stopped after many years because I couldn't help, so yes I did. And girls can play on boys teams if the coaches allow it and they pass the same quality standards. Does it happen often, no. But is does happen, they are not excluded, that is a fact. In my state girls can’t play on boys teams. Boys can’t go to girls schools. I don’t see anyone suing to get in either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I was a Boy Scout during the 1970s, and received my Eagle in 1974. Some on this discussion thread may choose to characterize my viewpoints as spiteful or defeatist. I prefer the adjective "experienced". Scouting has been here before. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Only this time, they're not going to be able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sierracharliescouter Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Sure would be nice if cubs in 2018 meant January or June or September...Make a big difference to folks on the front lines who may already be fielding questions about when their daughter can join I have already pointed out to my Council that by not starting the girls program on June 1, with the rest of the Cubs, the girls can't go to Day Camp, and therefore can't earn the Outdoor Activity Award their first year. We do other advancement activities during the summer as well as a Pack and Dens. I will be fighting to get the effective date June 1, or BSA's effort at gender equality will start out with inequality... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Why are individuals already beating their chests about Eagle. The older youth scouts will not even be implemented for a long while. They will have a great deal of time to hopefully work out many concerns, both real and imagined. And many concerns already breached seem to me to be making a problem where none even exists and simply looking for the negative. This is the attitude that continues to confuse me, especially on a board made up of supposedly logical and proponents fo the basic tenets of Scouting. Maybe a few need to step back a distance and take a few deep breaths. IF you truly are so upset that you would turn in your Eagle, then you likely never really understood the foundation of the program. You certainly have the absolute right to your opinions of course, but the logic behind them is sorely lacking and self-defeating. Personally, I am looking forward to our pack officially expanding within its current family, and the possible addition of new opportunity for the youth of our community. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gblotter Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) IF you truly are so upset that you would turn in your Eagle, then you likely never really understood the foundation of the program. Please refer to me a post where anyone said they were prepared to turn in their Eagle. Or are you just making an irrational comment? Edited October 14, 2017 by gblotter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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