Eagle Scout Board of Review

[David CO]

8 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

What I have said the last 10 times this exact same subject was discussed, let's pretend I'm saying it again.

Are you an eagle bored of review?

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Hopefully it would recognize that what "we" had for meals is less important than many other things you have mentioned here over the years, like leadership, responsibility, and values.

I don't know. A good meal involves a lot of leadership, responsibility, and values.

I rember 13-year-old me staring down my last can of franks and beans, saying "Never again." My patrol began to live large (like I saw my SPL and his leadership corps doing) after that.

I don't think it came up on my boards of review. But, getting my buddies to cook well for ourselves (and still having time to fly the army surplus box kite the SM loaned out) was as good a marker of leadership development as any.

[numbersnerd]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I don't know. A good meal involves a lot of leadership, responsibility, and values.

I rember 13-year-old me staring down my last can of franks and beans, saying "Never again." My patrol began to live large (like I saw my SPL and his leadership corps doing) after that.

I don't think it came up on my boards of review. But, getting my buddies to cook well for ourselves (and still having time to fly the army surplus box kite the SM loaned out) was as good a marker of leadership development as any.

Agreed. My oldest provided feedback in his Tenderfoot BOR about hamburger fatigue. Now there are Dutch oven cooking contests incorporated into the camping schedule and a some interesting culinary forays as a result. Not everything is successful, but they're learning. And I heard that cleanup is now easier as a result!

[NJCubScouter]

8 hours ago, David CO said:

Are you an eagle bored of review?

Very punny.  But if we are going to accept the premise of the pun, I am actually a Life bored of review. 

[Eagledad]

14 hours ago, Stosh said:

When does the question allow for the scout to expand on his experiences and when does it judge whether or not that experience is good enough to be labeled as Eagle-worthy? 

"In our troop, we traditionally had PopTarts and hot cocoa for breakfast, PBJ's for lunch and foil dinners for supper.  It gave us a lot more time to have fun without having to wash dishes all the time."

.

We all challenge growth in our own way. Our patrols cook all meals (lunch is optional) because we want the scouts to experience the group dynamics as well as the required skills for cooking and clean up. More importantly, I knew from my experience as a youth that nothing challenges and bonds a patrol more than preparing and cleaning up a meal. My experience as an adult taught me that very few activities stress the PL more than the group dynamics of preparing meals and clean up. If it takes too long, and it usually does at first, the scouts learn how to become more efficient. Same goes with camp set-up and break-down.

As for the open ended Eagle questions, experiences of camping prepares scouts better for any generalized question from the board. I learned from this forum that a lot of units coach their scouts for preparation of the EBOR. It never occurred to me that a scout needed to be coached. His experience of scouting along with the skills learned by the requirements are enough in my mind.

Barry

Edited December 7, 2017 by Eagledad

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, numbersnerd said:

Agreed. My oldest provided feedback in his Tenderfoot BOR about hamburger fatigue. Now there are Dutch oven cooking contests incorporated into the camping schedule and a some interesting culinary forays as a result. Not everything is successful, but they're learning. And I heard that cleanup is now easier as a result!

When my son was a Troop Guide, he would show his NSP how to cook a turkey on their first camp out so they would know that he likes to eat well on all camp outs.

Barry

[perdidochas]

16 hours ago, Stosh said:

When does the question allow for the scout to expand on his experiences and when does it judge whether or not that experience is good enough to be labeled as Eagle-worthy? 

"In our troop, we traditionally had PopTarts and hot cocoa for breakfast, PBJ's for lunch and foil dinners for supper.  It gave us a lot more time to have fun without having to wash dishes all the time."

Yep, there's tomorrow's Eagle Scout. So what's the EBOR going to do?  Fail him?  What if he's already turned 18 by the time the EBOR runs around?

 

As long as he does the minimum meals needed for cooking merit badge, it's fine.  

[Col. Flagg]

On 12/6/2017 at 8:50 AM, gblotter said:

In rare circumstances, an Eagle Scout candidate may show at the BOR poorly-prepared to represent himself well. In those situations, the questioning can get difficult. This is not because we are asking tougher questions, but rather because the Scout is not prepared to answer the normal expected questions.

IMHO, preparing the Eagle for the EBOR is the role of the SM during the SMC. Making sure his paperwork is checked and re-checked is the role of the Eagle Coach/Coordinator. Yes, yes, of course it is ALSO the role of the Eagle himself...but the adult checks-and-balance is to prep him and make sure his documentation is clean, aligns with Internet Advancement and complete.

Not sure how other units do this, but our unit has done this going on over a decade. Luckily have not had any Scouts that were ill-prepared. We even had one Scout who suffered from anxiety issues. The SM advised him to mention this at the beginning of the EBOR. Once it was out on the table the anxieties went away. I'd never heard so much laughter in over 50 EBORs...he had them rolling. So much for anxiety. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[gblotter]

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

IMHO, preparing the Eagle for the EBOR is the role of the SM during the SMC.

Agreed.

In our Troop, I use the SMC as an opportunity to conduct a mock-EBOR. That kind of preparation yields great results because it removes the anxiety of uncertainty. After the mock-EBOR, the candidate pretty much knows the kind of questions that will be asked of him (like taking a sample test in preparation for a final exam).

[Eagledad]

32 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Agreed.

In our Troop, I use the SMC as an opportunity to conduct a mock-EBOR. That kind of preparation yields great results because it removes the anxiety of uncertainty. After the mock-EBOR, the candidate pretty much knows the kind of questions that will be asked of him (like taking a sample test in preparation for a final exam).

I'm not debating the subject because I'm not sure there is a wrong motivation. I'm only explaining my reasoning for not coaching. I honestly believe being active in a good program is all a scout needs to be ready for the EBOR. He may need to brush up on some skills, but he knows those skills better than me.

I don't think checking paperwork comes under the heading of coaching. However, I am guilty of giving a scout a few suggestions to calm his nerves. I have also given the scout a few suggestions mostly to calm the nerves of the parents who are observing our SM Conference. 

However, I have found many times that scout leaders who feel the need to coach their eagle candidates are either over estimating the judgment of the board or protecting their ego.

I also feel that having to coach a scout for a successful EBOR implies some failure of the program. I actively try to seek out the problem areas long before the scout is working on his Eagle.

While I know some folks have cause for concern about hostile EBORs, in general the motivation of most boards is only to express honor by giving the scout opportunities to brag about himself through their questions.

With respect, mock EBORs seem over the top. Just suggesting it would appear to imply it is something to be anxious about.

Barry

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

I always prep my Eagle candidates because neither of us know what shenanigans the various board members are going to pull on them once they go into the room.  BE PREPARED.  Whether they listened to what I suggested or not was up to them.

Two very good friends had their EBOR's on the same night with the same board.  1 boy listened to what I suggested and the board was able to get 4 questions asked of him.  Each question was answered in great detail and interest the board had to cut off his comments to go on to the next question.  On the other hand his buddy did not listen to my suggestions, answered with short, terse answers and thus had to endure 27 questions during the same allotted time.  Sure they both Eagled, but one had a very different experience in the EBOR than the other.

There was a point of time during the EBOR where the candidate left the room and questions were posed to me about the boy's qualifications as Eagle.  One of the board members asked me in a serious, but joking manner, "How do you get this boy to quiet down?"  I said that the EBOR is HIS EBOR and he can run it anyway he wishes, just like he did in the patrol.  To which the board member said, "Well, he certainly knows how to do that."  I knew the board was in trouble when the scout entered the room, stood at attention and saluted the board.  They didn't know what to say or do.  Finally one said, "take a seat." at which point he gave the Scout Sign, and did the Oath and Law before sitting down.  The first thing a board member said, "it is not proper to salute other scouts, just the flag", to which the scout gave the page number of the Scout Handbook that contradicted that statement.

[gblotter]

17 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Just suggesting it would appear to imply it is something to be anxious about.

I agree that anxiety is unwarranted with an EBOR - it is not an inquisition. I view a mock-EBOR as simply an opportunity to be prepared for an important event. Advance preparation shows that you take it seriously and want to represent yourself well. I have no problem with that at all.

 

20 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

However, I have found many times that scout leaders who feel the need to coach their eagle candidates are either over estimating the judgment of the board or protecting their ego.

Not really protecting my ego with these mock-EBORs, but I do confess that I want our candidates to set a good example of what a quality Eagle Scout should be (i.e. prepared). Once again, I see no problem with that at all.

 

38 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

With respect, mock EBORs seem over the top.

From your tone, I get the impression that you feel a mock-EBOR is somehow cheating. I understand your perspective, but I have a very different point of view. Conducting a mock-EBOR teaches a valuable life skill about deliberate preparation and not just "winging it".

I will offer a personal example: Last year I interviewed for a new job and made significant advance preparations to learn as much as possible about the new company, their technology, and the types of questions they would likely ask (believe it or not there are even websites that specialize in this kind of interview preparation). I tuned my resume to highlight the skills they needed. I watched YouTube videos by their CEO. I researched their product lines. I read their LinkedIn blogs. I even quizzed an employee (prior acquaintance) to better understand their company culture. Over the top? - perhaps yes. But I impressed the interviewers because they could tell I had done my homework ...and I got the job! If a boy learns some of these life skills through a mock-EBOR, I consider it a double benefit.

[NJCubScouter]

40 minutes ago, Stosh said:

The first thing a board member said, "it is not proper to salute other scouts, just the flag", to which the scout gave the page number of the Scout Handbook that contradicted that statement.

Just out of curiosity, what page is that?  I probably would have thought the same thing, but I wouldn't have said anything.  I probably would have just said, At ease, or something like that, and asked him to be seated.  Once he did the Oath and Law WITHOUT BEING ASKED (right?), I would have known what I had on my hands and proceeded accordingly.  If a Scout just wants to talk, that's fine.  If in talking he happens to answer all the board's questions, that's also fine.  If not, I'll stay there as long as he wants, even if its past my bedtime.  But in the end, unless one of his reference letters is from his probation officer, or the Scoutmaster signed the application but wrote "This is all a lie", or something like that, we'll be congratulating a new Eagle by the end of the night.

[Stosh]

I agree there is a lot of similarity between interviewing and EBOR's.  When I was in the ministry, I would interview at different congregations and my parting comment at the end of each one was.  "If you extend a Letter of Call to me, I will be setting up an interview with the congregation before accepting."  I got to pick who would be in the group on the second interview and they were the key players in the congregation, not just the call committee.  Congregations that had dumped their former pastor were never in a hurry to take me on and I wasn't going to walk into a hornet's nest and waste my time. 

[Eagledad]

24 minutes ago, gblotter said:

From your tone, I get the impression that you feel a mock-EBOR is somehow cheating. I understand your perspective, but I have a very different point of view. Conducting a mock-EBOR teaches a valuable life skill about deliberate preparation and not just "winging it".

 

No, not at all. Good preparation is not cheating. I simply feel it is a lot of extra work (over the top) for what the board will ask. Your explanation of value life skill is a great motivation for doing it.

Barry

Edited December 7, 2017 by Eagledad