Duty to God (Oath and Law), in STEM Scouts but not Explorer?

[Hawkwin]

Within the last few months, I have attended an information session for both a local STEM Scouts and a local Explorer Scouts unit.

 

I was rather surprised to find out that STEM placed the same emphasis on Duty to God that Boy Scouts do.

 

https://stemscouts.org/frequently-asked-questions/

 

STEM Scouts follows the Scout Oath and Law with the goal of producing men and women who are leaders, display confidence, realize their skills and limitations, are respectful of others’ opinions, are problem solvers in all aspects of life, look for opportunities to serve others, are good citizens, and demonstrate integrity in all phases of their lives. Each meeting will open with the Pledge, Scout Oath and Law.

 

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Considering how the STEM program works, it seemed an odd requirement, but I shrugged it off.

 

I then attended an Explorer presentation for a new unit.

 

http://www.exploring.org/about-us/

 

NON-DISCRIMINATION STATEMENT

Exploring programs are designed for all age groups from pre-kindergarten and not yet age 21. Youth participation is open to any youth in the prescribed age group for that particular program. Adults are selected by the participating organization for involvement in the program. Color, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, disability, economic status or citizenship is not criteria for participation by youth or adults.

 

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Not even a mention of the Pledge, Oath, or Law - and we were told that such is never recited at their meetings of events.

 

 

What I found surprising is that how these two very similar programs could have such different requirements of membership while both being part of BSA.

[Eagle94-A1]

When Exploring split into two, Venturing and Exploring, Exploring came under the Learning For Life Subsidiary of the BSA. As a result, their membership policies changed. Part of that was the result of the Chicago lawsuit.

 

 

Many folks advocate that STEM Scouts are true Scouts. If that is the case, then yes, they need to adhere to the Scout Oath and Law.

[Rick_in_CA]

When Exploring split into two, Venturing and Exploring, Exploring came under the Learning For Life Subsidiary of the BSA. As a result, their membership policies changed. Part of that was the result of the Chicago lawsuit.

 

 

Many folks advocate that STEM Scouts are true Scouts. If that is the case, then yes, they need to adhere to the Scout Oath and Law.

That is a question that the BSA appears to be trying to avoid answering. Out unit's COR was at a meeting when the BSA was asking our council to be a STEM Scouts pilot council. He said that the question was asked, and they were told it was under Learning for Life and that it was fully inclusive so public schools could use the program (i.e. the DRP didn't apply). I wonder if that is still true? Does the DRP apply? And why isn't that in the STEM Scouts FAQ?

[RememberSchiff]

I have seen a CO application but not a member application where the DRP usually appears.

 

https://stemscouts.org/lib/file/manager/STEM_New_Unit_Application.pdf

[CalicoPenn]

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools.  The BSA's policies were conflicting with the Public Schools duty to follow state and federal government non-discrimination laws so they set up Learning for Life without the BSA policies that were conflicting and moved the Exploring program - minus the high adventure posts - to LFL so both the Boy Scouts and the various public schools could have a win.

 

With STEM - they were able to plan better.  They knew that for the STEM Scouts to succeed, they would need access to public school laboratories if this was going to work so they created a Non-Discrimination Policy that everyone must abide by (as opposed to the DRP apparently) that works for school districts as well and it appears that they decided to add the Scout Oath and Law by making a conscious decision not to engage in the debates of what the Oath means when it says Duty to God (presumably, Athiests, etc. can just not say those words) or what it means when it says morally straight.

[NJCubScouter]

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools.

Right. And local police departments that sponsored Police Explorer posts. And government-operated (since some are not) fire departments, rescue squads etc. for posts in those areas. (Though I have seen emergency-management Venture Crews too, so I am not sure where they draw the line.) And any other potential sponsor that is part of, or run by, any level of government. None of them can discriminate on the basis of religion - including on the basis of non-belief.

Edited October 9, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[NJCubScouter]

With STEM - they were able to plan better.  They knew that for the STEM Scouts to succeed, they would need access to public school laboratories if this was going to work so they created a Non-Discrimination Policy that everyone must abide by (as opposed to the DRP apparently) that works for school districts as well and it appears that they decided to add the Scout Oath and Law by making a conscious decision not to engage in the debates of what the Oath means when it says Duty to God (presumably, Athiests, etc. can just not say those words) or what it means when it says morally straight.

The BSA has made this issue regarding STEM Scouts SO ambiguous that it is difficult to believe it was unintentional.

[Hawkwin]

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools. 

 

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools.  The BSA's policies were conflicting with the Public Schools duty to follow state and federal government non-discrimination laws so they set up Learning for Life without the BSA policies that were conflicting and moved the Exploring program - minus the high adventure posts - to LFL so both the Boy Scouts and the various public schools could have a win.

 

With STEM - they were able to plan better.  They knew that for the STEM Scouts to succeed, they would need access to public school laboratories if this was going to work so they created a Non-Discrimination Policy that everyone must abide by (as opposed to the DRP apparently) that works for school districts as well and it appears that they decided to add the Scout Oath and Law by making a conscious decision not to engage in the debates of what the Oath means when it says Duty to God (presumably, Athiests, etc. can just not say those words) or what it means when it says morally straight.

 

How weird. That would seem to be backwards. STEM has the requirements to recite the Pledge, Scout Oath and Law. Explorers do not. STEM does not have a Non-Disc Agreement. Explorers do. STEM meets on school grounds and is quite literally an after-school program. Explorers, to my knowledge, never meet on school grounds.

 

Makes me wonder why BSA has not revisited this issue for both organizations.

[Rick_in_CA]

I have seen a CO application but not a member application where the DRP usually appears.

 

https://stemscouts.org/lib/file/manager/STEM_New_Unit_Application.pdf

Ah, so in the CO application is the non-discrimination statement:

Policy of Nondiscrimination.

Membership in STEM Scouts is open to all who meet the joining requirements. Color, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, disability, economic status or citizenship is not criteria for participation by youth or adults.

Now why isn't this on the STEM Scouts website? Maybe it's that for years, the BSA has said that allowing the membership of non believers is incompatible with the Oath and Law, but suddenly for STEM Scouts it isn't? And if it's fine for STEM Scouts, it brings up the question, why isn't it OK for boy scouts?

[NJCubScouter]

Ah, so in the CO application is the non-discrimination statement:

Now why isn't this on the STEM Scouts website? Maybe it's that for years, the BSA has said that allowing the membership of non believers is incompatible with the Oath and Law, but suddenly for STEM Scouts it isn't? And if it's fine for STEM Scouts, it brings up the question, why isn't it OK for boy scouts?

 

I think it IS on their web site, or at least the application is on their web site and the application includes the non-discrimination statement.

 

I went looking for a general BSA non-discrimination policy and this is what I found: http://www.vccbsa.org/~/media/Councils/Council057/Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America%20Nondiscrimination%20Statement%20for%20Members%20and%20Leaders%2008-25-15.ashx

 

It is from a council web site, not National, and it appears to be from 2008,* so if anyone can find a more recent one, please post it. In reading the STEM Scouts policy and this statement, a couple of things jump out.  First, the general statement does not mention religion in the list of characteristics on which discrimination is prohibited.  (I don't think I have ever seen a listing like that that does not mention religion before.)  The STEM Scout one does mention religion.  Second, the general statement makes the non-discrimination policy subject to the Scout Oath and Law, and for adults, also the DRP.  The STEM Scouts one does not mention these at all.  And yet the STEM Scouts recite the Oath and Law at their meetings.

 

If anyone can find any logic in this, please share it.  I don't see any.

 

*Edit: No, it's not from 2008.  It just occurred to me that in URL-speak, %2008 does not mean 2008, it means a space followed by an 08.  Since the number is 08-25-15, the year could just as easily be 2015, or the year might not be there at all.  2015 may very well be correct, though, because I also noticed that for both youth and adults, it bans discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, and for adults it makes the policy subject to "the right of religious chartered organizations to use Scouting as part of their program and to select unit leaders in accordance with their religious principles."  Which is another way of stating the local option.  It wouldn't have said all that before 2015.  But it still doesn't say religion, and the fact that it is from 2015 or later, rather than 2008, makes it much more likely that this is the current version.  And yet the STEM Scouts one does mention religion.

Edited October 10, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Rick_in_CA]

I think it IS on their web site, or at least the application is on their web site and the application includes the non-discrimination statement.

You are correct, but I would call that "buried". In my opinion, the question of membership standards should be clearly spelled out prominently on the website, perhaps in the FAQ. That fact that it isn't, I don't believe is an oversight, but an attempt to avoid the issue. Which doesn't serve anyone well.