Freedom versus oversight while camping

[fred johnson]

We are taking scouts camping at a state park.  As with many parks, the park has both beauty and potential danger.  Rivers.  Small bouldering areas.  Only cliffs are near some small waterfalls.  

 

Essentially, if the scouts exercise fair judgement, they will be safe.  If the scouts want to be significantly less intelligent, they could get hurt.  

• Does Guide To Safe Scouting require us to have adults with them as they explore the park ?  
• What triggers us to require adults for day hikes ?

I really really really want to give the scouts independence and freedom and to NOT baby sit them.  

 

Thoughts?

 

[ItsBrian]

I’m not a adult, but here’s what I experienced and my opinion.

 

First, it depends on the ages. You wouldn’t send a group of Tenderfoots or so by themselves, they are still new to the troop and so on. But, like a senior patrol, Star, life, then I would say okay. I would make sure I trusted them.

 

I have no idea whether or not safe scouting requires you to be with them, but I think as long as you’re in the area you will be fine.

 

Again, my opinion.

[Eagledad]

I really really really want to give the scouts independence and freedom and to NOT baby sit them.  

 

Thoughts?

cchoat said it best in another discussion, "It doesn't happen overnight, but I believe in the saying, "Train em right, trust (but verify) that they do it right, then get out of the way!"

 

You have to prove to the scouts that you are willing to "trust" them, so that they value the freedom of you getting out of the way. If they don't value it, they will abuse it. But you have to start somewhere.

 

The limitations of all troops are based from the fears of the adults. I used to teach adults to train the scouts around the adult fears. It may be as simple of feeling comfortable enough to let the scouts go on a five mile hike without adults. I would ask the adults what they fear about that, and then we would develop a plan for easing their fear so they would let the scouts do the hike.

 

What is it that you fear with this outing, taking risks that they should not take? As cchoat says, all this doesn't happen over night. You know your scouts better than us. What freedom can you give them that shows you are giving them some trust that will develop the goal of eventually giving scouts full independence. Is there some instruction or training that would help ease your (and your parents!) fears. I like to tell adults to push their fear limits. It's a hard question to give a simple answer. But whatever you plan, it will likely be as much of a growing experience for the adults as the scouts.

 

Barry

Edited September 26, 2017 by Eagledad

[David CO]

There is no simple stock answer to this question.  There are so many different variables involved.  First of all, it is not just a matter of trusting your kids.  Do you trust everyone else at the park?  

 

Is it hunting season?  Is there water involved?  Are there any caves or old mines?  What are the laws/rules about child supervision in that state?  

 

I would not allow any group of kids to go off on their own unless it is a planned excursion with the expressed permission of their parents.  

Edited September 26, 2017 by David CO

[qwazse]

... I would not allow any group of kids to go off on their own unless it is a planned excursion with the expressed permission of their parents.  

I tackle this slightly differently. I prepare parents that I will encourage scouts to plan excursions on their own. This includes the scouts reviewing:

• a map/brochures ... sometimes the week before ... sometimes the day of ... often times both,
• skill sets (how many 1st class scouts are among you),
• boundaries (that includes time constraints as well as obstacles that may require qualified supervision).
• equipment needs,
• weather outlook,
• personnel needs.

Each patrol reviews their plan with me -- every week leading up to the event. They start out real general, and get more specific. Generally, these guys don't give me a plan separate from the troop's overall schedule. So, usually it's something like "After we set up camp, we would like to go see ..." Based on that, I ask them to "fill in the gaps" of anything mentioned above.

 

Often they will ask for an adult or two. They will be specific. For example, they know not to ask me to open a shooting range for them. They will ask me along if they want to identify flora and fauna, or if they need qualified supervision for a safe swim. When they don't, they will usually provide a rendezvous/extraction point and time for an adult to meet them.

 

Youth with a good plan are safer than they'd be with adults and a bad (or no) plan.

 

We are exited and nervous for this year because the boys have organized themselves into four diverse patrols and it's not clear if we will get a good range of multi-tiered activities -- or we'll get everyone always trying to march to the same drummer. Our CC is rightly concerned that we might not always have adults for the things they want to do.

[blw2]

I'm reminded of a summer camp experience...way back in ancient times when I was a scout.

One night, we had a capture the flag sort of thing...at night

scouts started at one end of the camp, scouters and staff at the other.  If you got through you won.  My team...4 guys I think, decided to take the path down by the sound, where there was a steep bluff along the shore, knowing adults wouldn't go there.... we were well on track but someone fell and got hurt (not on the bluffs as I recall)... and we had to forfeit and carry him out.... 1st aid and all of that.

A fond memory.  

We were stupid by adult standards I suppose, but we found our way, learned to lead....

[Eagledad]

I tackle this slightly differently. I prepare parents that I will encourage scouts to plan excursions on their own. This includes the scouts reviewing:

• a map/brochures ... sometimes the week before ... sometimes the day of ... often times both,
• skill sets (how many 1st class scouts are among you),
• boundaries (that includes time constraints as well as obstacles that may require qualified supervision).
• equipment needs,
• weather outlook,
• personnel needs.

Each patrol reviews their plan with me -- every week leading up to the event. They start out real general, and get more specific. Generally, these guys don't give me a plan separate from the troop's overall schedule. So, usually it's something like "After we set up camp, we would like to go see ..." Based on that, I ask them to "fill in the gaps" of anything mentioned above.

 

Often they will ask for an adult or two. They will be specific. For example, they know not to ask me to open a shooting range for them. They will ask me along if they want to identify flora and fauna, or if they need qualified supervision for a safe swim. When they don't, they will usually provide a rendezvous/extraction point and time for an adult to meet them.

 

Youth with a good plan are safer than they'd be with adults and a bad (or no) plan.

 

We are exited and nervous for this year because the boys have organized themselves into four diverse patrols and it's not clear if we will get a good range of multi-tiered activities -- or we'll get everyone always trying to march to the same drummer. Our CC is rightly concerned that we might not always have adults for the things they want to do.

This is exactly what I meant by the adults training the scouts around the adult fears. And I hinted at it, but qwazse said directly that it's not just the adult leaders that have to be convinced, the parents have to feel comfortable about the scouts independence as well. This is a good thing, as the parents watch how the adult leaders get the scouts up to a comfortable level of skills, they also learn about how the program works and develop a trust for it. They develop a lot of respect for the program and adult leaders.

 

However, let me add, each experience is a step forward in giving the scouts more independence. Generally the process to get scouts up to a level of skills that gets the adults comfortable doesn't usually have to be repeated. At least not to the full original process. So the adults can just keep pushing their fear boundary out farther at each step. As has been said, it takes a while, but you will find that as the scouts gain confidence in the adults and the adults gain more trust in the scouts, the maturity of the program will grow faster and faster. The hardest part of the process is just getting the adults to take the first step of wanting to give the scouts this kind of independence.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Kids today at the same age are not as developmentally mature as they were 50 years ago. 

[David CO]

I know exactly what my pastor would say.  He would look the boys straight in the eyes and ask, "What exactly do you boys want to do that you can't do with adult oversight?"

 

 

This is exactly what I meant by the adults training the scouts around the adult fears. And I hinted at it, but qwazse said directly that it's not just the adult leaders that have to be convinced, the parents have to feel comfortable about the scouts independence as well. This is a good thing, as the parents watch how the adult leaders get the scouts up to a comfortable level of skills, they also learn about how the program works and develop a trust for it. They develop a lot of respect for the program and adult leaders.

 

However, let me add, each experience is a step forward in giving the scouts more independence. Generally the process to get scouts up to a level of skills that gets the adults comfortable doesn't usually have to be repeated. At least not to the full original process. So the adults can just keep pushing their fear boundary out farther at each step. As has been said, it takes a while, but you will find that as the scouts gain confidence in the adults and the adults gain more trust in the scouts, the maturity of the program will grow faster and faster. The hardest part of the process is just getting the adults to take the first step of wanting to give the scouts this kind of independence.

 

Barry

 

Again, it is not always a question of adults trusting the scouts and having confidence in the scouts' skills.  It is often a matter of not trusting all of the other people at the park.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by David CO

[Back Pack]

Our SM allowed us to explore as long as we had our ten essentials, stayed as a patrol, notified the SPL and SM our plans and stuck to them. We all had park maps and knew how to use them. We got to explore like this on any camp out. Swimming was not allowed but other than that we were free to explore. If we planned to be gone longer than 2 hours we had to check in.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Back Pack

[fred johnson]

Thanks for the comments.  They help me think through what we'll do.  Thank you !!!!

[Eagledad]

Again, it is not always a question of adults trusting the scouts and having confidence in the scouts' skills.  It is often a matter of not trusting all of the other people at the park.  

Is this not an adult fear?

 

I gave the example of helping one leader with the idea of letting his scouts go on a five mile hike without adults. His fear of  strangers with bad intentions was his number one concern. So he trained them to stick together as a group (buddy system) and not get distracted from their task by inquiring strangers. That was my discussion. I don't know what else he taught them, but he approached me 6 months later at another adult training course to brag about the scouts hike.

 

Barry

[jwest09]

Our SM allowed us to explore as long as we had our ten essentials, stayed as a patrol, notified the SPL and SM our plans and stuck to them. We all had park maps and knew how to use them. We got to explore like this on any camp out. Swimming was not allowed but other than that we were free to explore. If we planned to be gone longer than 2 hours we had to check in.

 

This is generally the approach I try to take.  My theory is, I didn't drag you kids out to this camp ground / state park / forest / trail / river just for you to sit in the camp site and be baby sat.  You should be out exploring, learning and problem solving with your patrol.

 

We generally expect them to communicate their plan with the SPL prior to heading out - just something simple along the lines of, which area they'll be exploring, which route they'll hike, etc.  They are expected to communicate any changes back to the SPL or adults.  (We've sometimes used cheap FRS radios to let the patrols talk over a wide area.  Some of the older boys just text each other if we're in an area with cell reception.)

 

We do expressly prohibit some activities, depending on where we are.  Hiking beyond the boundaries of the property we're at is usually prohibited, as would be moving into areas reserved by other groups for their program.  Swimming isn't allowed without proper supervision, but I don't particularly mind if they go wading in a shallow creek or pond.

 

Most of our adults will hike around the area separately, and "by chance" bump into each patrol, and casually check up on them, and correct any issues that might come up.

 

Hasn't been a huge problem.

[thrifty]

I can only assume by comments our SM has made in the past, that his biggest fear is being held responsible for something bad happening to a scout.  I think he's a little paranoid but I'm sure most of you veteran scouters have at least one story of something bad happened to a scout and having to tell the parents.  I agree that the scouts need freedom and need trust that they will do the right thing.  How do you balance the need of the scouts with parents that won't be happy when their scout comes home with a broken ankle or worse?  I don't think many parents would be as understanding as I am if they found out no leader was present when their son was injured, no matter the reason why.  I don't think it matters how many times you explain things in a meeting or email, they'll still be upset.  It's not just an angry parent but other headaches that could result from that.

[jwest09]

I can only assume by comments our SM has made in the past, that his biggest fear is being held responsible for something bad happening to a scout.  I think he's a little paranoid but I'm sure most of you veteran scouters have at least one story of something bad happened to a scout and having to tell the parents.  I agree that the scouts need freedom and need trust that they will do the right thing.  How do you balance the need of the scouts with parents that won't be happy when their scout comes home with a broken ankle or worse?  I don't think many parents would be as understanding as I am if they found out no leader was present when their son was injured, no matter the reason why.  I don't think it matters how many times you explain things in a meeting or email, they'll still be upset.  It's not just an angry parent but other headaches that could result from that.

 

Undoubtedly, that's what the poor SM is concerned about.  

 

I think each troop has its own culture. I'm fortunate that work with a group that resists the "helicoptering" instinct.  When new parents approach the troop, we're pretty upfront about our culture and philosophy - and we're pretty frank that, as their boys journey through Scouting, some lessons may be learned the hard way.  And, you know, some families opt to join a different troop, and I'm totally OK with that.  Each family should join a troop with a culture they feel comfortable with.

 

My personal opinion is that we're currently experiencing an overreaction in risk aversion.  Partly because there's been a small number of high-profile cases where courts and/or insurance companies have awarded outlandish judgement for mundane mishaps - and the media plays these up to make them appear much more common than they really are.  There's also the "court of social media," where Facebook will whip people into a frenzy for a few days over inconsequential issues.  Obviously no one wants to experience any of this.

 

But, in my experience, the negative effects in reality have been minor and short-lived.  I've been involved in instances where the BSA insurance provided by my council has been invoked on minor injuries requiring hospital care - it was surprisingly painless.  I've had a few instances where a parent or parents will make a scene about something, yell and scream, post something inflammatory on Facebook... and then, a week later, they've moved on.  And, while far from my favorite part of the job, it is a price I'm willing to pay to continue to offer a fun, challenging, exciting and engaging program, that the majority of boys and families appreciate.  Because, even after someone overreacts and throws a loud and dramatic temper tantrum on their way out the door, I still have 40 boys, and a core group of leaders and parents, who faithfully show up and make Scouting happen.  So it works for me.