The issue with girls in Scouting

[Snow Owl]

There are multiple versions of the Youth App out there- the flattest one HAS different language and no longer has the fee amounts listed.  Look on the lower right corner of the app to see the issue number.  The one I am referring to has the number "717" in the corner.  I have tried to attach it

New App.pdf

Edited September 16, 2017 by Snow Owl

[Snow Owl]

I must correct the false information posted here before it explodes into false rumors and spreads beyond this thread. 

 

 

Clearly you did not read the application very carefully. Or you have misquoted it, though why I can only imagine. 

 

My friends, I have in front of me a youth application, picked up a few hours ago from my regional Scout Service Center. It is the latest and most current application to come from the BSA. Under the heading "CUB SCOUT PACK," on the second page inside, it says "Pack membership is open to boys." No further comment. Under "BOY SCOUT TROOP/VARSITY TEAM," it says under the heading Boy Scout Troop "Your son can be a Scout if he has completed ... et cetera, while under Varsity Team is says "Varsity Scouting - A male youth must be at least 14 years of age and not yet 18." Both are explicit. There is no room for misunderstanding or re-interpretation.

 

To differentiate those programs from a program that actually is co-ed, it reads under the heading "VENTURING CREW/SEA SCOUT SHIP (COEDUCATIONAL)" (for emphasis I am sure) "Venturing and Sea Scouting are for young men and women at least 13 years old ..." et cetera.

 

All are very clear. There has been no change to this application. I called my regional offices to confirm as an added measure of certification to my research. They confirmed that there is no "newer application," and that there is no plan to open either Boy Scouting or Cub Scouting to girls at this time.

 

To spread the false rumor that the application is accepting girls is unwise and unwarranted. Why would National secretly try to smuggle such a massive change into the program under our noses? Would they really be so idiotic as to think they could slip in such a bombshell without anybody noticing? Of course not. If they ever did make such a decision it would come with trumpets blaring and fanfares and all kinds of nonsense. They wouldn't bury clues in the applications as though this was some second-rate mystery for the members to find and try to solve.

check the date.  the number on the front lower right tells you the version.  The newest is 717  (meaning July 2017)

 

I cannot tell you what National thinks or what region knows or does not know.  If you want to know what goes on in an organization don't go to the top, ask the folks at the bottom doing the work.

 

As for the bomb shell - Remember Dr. Gates

Edited September 16, 2017 by Snow Owl

[RememberSchiff]

There are multiple versions of the Youth App out there- the flattest one HAS different language and no longer has the fee amounts listed.  Look on the lower right corner of the app to see the issue number.  The one I am referring to has the number "717" in the corner.  I have tried to attach it

New App.pdf

There is also no mention of Varsity Scouting on this link.

 

I am not surprised that the cellphone App and scouting.org website form are different.

[Eagle94-A1]

 

 

 

I believe a parallel program is an appropriate and good solution. I do believe that single gender programs have much to offer, particularly since we also have multiple coed programs. I mean no disrespect to GSUSA, but I honestly believe there is no better youth program for building character, confidence and leadership that BSA. So why would I offer my son the best opportunities and my daughter something less?

 

 

The challenge with the BSA creating a parallel program for girls 11 (or 10 with AOL , etc) -18 is that we already have volunteers stating they will ignore that policy. While on paper there will be a separate girls only unit, in reality the girls will be integrated into the existing Boy Scout troop. Not only Scouters in my own troop said that, but Scouters at the town hall meeting on the topic stated it. And the Council Key 3 gave the impression that "yes, we know this is going to happen and don't care" from their body language.

 

 

What changes do you think will need to be made? I hear a lot of this "changing the program" but I never hear anyone say what they think that will be? Like specifics.... (btw I do not want any changes at all to the program, we we are I agreement there)

 

GSUSA does not want to change, and they won't. So many say that they should, but that's a dead end.

 

I admit I'm not an expert in developmental psychology. And it's been over 20 years since I took a course in the topic. But some of the things off the top of my head include:

 

Writing style of literature. Let's face it boys and girls are different, and authors do write towards a specific population.

 

Training for adults and Scouts.  Been a while since I staffed JLT, so I do not know if Counseling is still part of the syllabus, but there are subtle difference in how to cousel boys and girls. And let's face it, all of the training deals with working with boys, except Sea Scouts and Venturing.

 

Youth Protection. This is probably the biggest. Scuttlebut is that new YPT will be coming out for everyone, including Scouts, and it will be based upon Venturing's YPT since it deals with coed issues. We all know that there will be units that go fully coed with the parallel units meetings, camping, etc at the same time with the same Scouters. What will happen when the "girls' unit" doesn't have a female Scouter to camp with them? Will the 2 units cancel the trip, only the "Boys' unit" can go and the girls cannot, or will they do something that one Scouter said he would do: turn the camp out into a "Family Camp Out" so that as long as a dad goes, the daughter can go too? Yes, I've already had a Scouter state that scenario.

 

There are other issues that escape me at the moment. I'll revisit as I can think of them.

 

 

 When you say "the creation of a parallel program," isn't that exactly what groups like the Girl Scouts or the Campfire Girls are doing? Why expect the BSA to come up with such a thing when there are plenty of other programs doing just that?  People say "the Girl Scouts won't change," and so they leave them alone. But when the Boy Scouts don't change, NO! We much MAKE them change! Why then afflict the Boy Scouts instead of accepting what our program is, like you seem content to do with the Girl Scouts? It's a double-standard, and it reeks of ulterior agendas. 

 

 

In the videos they showed at the Townhalls, the suggestion was to either work with an existing group to offer girls a more Boy Scout program, or BSA create their own, all girl program for 11 - 18 year olds. Some countries WOSM do just that. When I worked with Finnish Scouts back in the day, their program was coed at the Cub level, then split into separate Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts ( or maybe Guides, don't remember all the details), then coed Venturing age program.  It worked for them because the Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts in Finland merged together. They keep the traditions and ranks of both programs at the Boy Scout level, which is wider known and respected than Cub level.

 

I agree GSUSA will not work with us. And despite Campfire being created by BSA founders in 1910 as a parallel program for girls, they wen their own way a long time ago. American Heritage Girls will no longer work with us since the membership policies changed. AHG would have been the ideal group to merge with since their program DID copy the BSA's to the point that their girls and volunteers could attend BSA events and training and receive an equivalent award or recognition. However one of the challenges with the AHG troop that my CO chartered was a lack of female volunteers to take them camping. 

 

check the date.  the number on the front lower right tells you the version.  The newest is 717  (meaning July 2017)

 

 

WOW.  Either you got a new application by mistake, or national hasn't updated their website since they still have the 115 (January 2015) application is still up their.

 

I also noticed that Lions, which is supposedly a pilot program still, is listed on the 717 application.

 

I really believe the decision is made, and as my sources have told me, the announcement will be made in January.

 

 

There is also no mention of Varsity Scouting on this link.

 

 

 

 

It's been mentioned that Varsity will cease to exist as of January 1, 2018. Why do I believe that national had that decision made a while ago too?

[RememberSchiff]

 

Youth Protection. This is probably the biggest. Scuttlebut is that new YPT will be coming out for everyone, including Scouts, and it will be based upon Venturing's YPT since it deals with coed issues. We all know that there will be units that go fully coed with the parallel units meetings, camping, etc at the same time with the same Scouters. What will happen when the "girls' unit" doesn't have a female Scouter to camp with them? Will the 2 units cancel the trip, only the "Boys' unit" can go and the girls cannot, or will they do something that one Scouter said he would do: turn the camp out into a "Family Camp Out" so that as long as a dad goes, the daughter can go too? Yes, I've already had a Scouter state that scenario.

 

I too have heard that around Council about new YPT rules coming , i.e., if the Dads accompany their daughters, the lack of female leaders on an outing would not be an issue. Anyway, that's yet another rumor.

Edited September 16, 2017 by RememberSchiff
grammar

[David CO]

I too have heard that around Council about new YPT rules coming , i.e., if the Dads accompany their daughters, the lack of female leaders on an outing would not be an issue. Anyway, that's yet another rumor.

 

BSA is not the only organization to have youth protection policies.  Chartered Organizations have them, too. Even if BSA were to allow a co-ed group of children go camping without a female leader, there is no guarantee that the CO would allow it.  It may still be an issue for many units.

Edited September 16, 2017 by David CO

[David CO]

I can easily envision a scenario where a unit with a conservative religious Chartered Organization must choose between leaving the girls behind or canceling a trip for the boys because there are no female leaders available. Imagine the complaints we will be hearing if they leave the girls behind.

[MattR]

I can easily envision a scenario where a unit with a conservative religious Chartered Organization must choose between leaving the girls behind or canceling a trip for the boys because there are no female leaders available. Imagine the complaints we will be hearing if they leave the girls behind.

That's the issue that's missing in the poll: not enough moms. It doesn't matter if the units are coed or not. Hopefully I'm wrong but we've had moms that will do some challenging campouts once, likely just to say they could do it, and then they're done with that. The problem with GS is the lack of dads. It's not that all moms don't want to do it but the dads are more likely to want to do the adventurous stuff.

Edited September 16, 2017 by MattR

[David CO]

When my school does Outdoor Education, which is co-ed, most of the volunteer parents are men. We get away with it because most of our teachers are women. 

 

I don't know if it is because the moms are less adventurous, as others have claimed, or if it is simply that moms of that age often have other youngsters to care for at home.

 

I can say that some of the women teachers are pretty vocal in the teacher's lounge about the fact that they don't enjoy going on Outdoor Education. They wouldn't do it if it wasn't a requirement of the job.

 

I don't think we could run a co-ed Outdoor Education program if we had to rely solely on volunteers.

Edited September 16, 2017 by David CO

[Eagle94-A1]

I can easily envision a scenario where a unit with a conservative religious Chartered Organization must choose between leaving the girls behind or canceling a trip for the boys because there are no female leaders available. Imagine the complaints we will be hearing if they leave the girls behind.

 

Imagine how many boys will drop if they cannot go camping. We had one troop close down because they could not get enough volunteers to camp with the troop. The troop folded and the members went to 2 different troops, or quit completely. Heck my Webelos son didn't go on a pack lock in last night because "It's not camping."

[Chisos]

Imagine how many boys will drop if they cannot go camping. We had one troop close down because they could not get enough volunteers to camp with the troop. The troop folded and the members went to 2 different troops, or quit completely. Heck my Webelos son didn't go on a pack lock in last night because "It's not camping."

 

I've seen you saying it too and I agree this is going to be a problem.  I expect there will be a YP change that says each scout has to have a leader that is either the same gender, or a parent.  (adding a "if a parent goes its ok" exception)

[Eagle94-A1]

I too have heard that around Council about new YPT rules coming , i.e., if the Dads accompany their daughters, the lack of female leaders on an outing would not be an issue. Anyway, that's yet another rumor.

 

I don't think that will happen. Venturing, which is already coed, does not give a parent exemption. Plus what about the girls who do not have a dad going?

[Chisos]

I don't think that will happen. Venturing, which is already coed, does not give a parent exemption. Plus what about the girls who do not have a dad going?

 

They're going to have to put the ball in the parents' court.  If mom is ok with her daughter going on a campout with only male adults, that'll be her call.  If not, either keep your kid home, or step up and go.

[qwazse]

I can easily envision a scenario where a unit with a conservative religious Chartered Organization must choose between leaving the girls behind or canceling a trip for the boys because there are no female leaders available. Imagine the complaints we will be hearing if they leave the girls behind.

Welcome to my world. The second worse thing I've experienced as a scouter was having to tell young women that a trip was not available to them for lack of moms to go backpacking with them.

 

That was before I joined the council venturing committee and learned to build a depth chart: women from other units, older sisters, college age Girl Scout leaders, former venturers, friendships from Wood Badge, nuns, single women, ex-military, scout moms whose boys no longer wanted them around, etc ... Yes, it felt weird being a middle aged married guy propositioning women to come for a weekend in the back country, but if it was a choice between weird or rejecting, l could get used to the wierd.

 

As to the girls affected, mine came up with a plan B for the following week and recruited two moms.

[David CO]

Welcome to my world. The second worse thing I've experienced as a scouter was having to tell young women that a trip was not available to them for lack of moms to go backpacking with them.

 

That was before I joined the council venturing committee and learned to build a depth chart: women from other units, older sisters, college age Girl Scout leaders, former venturers, friendships from Wood Badge, nuns, single women, ex-military, scout moms whose boys no longer wanted them around, etc ... Yes, it felt weird being a middle aged married guy propositioning women to come for a weekend in the back country, but if it was a choice between weird or rejecting, l could get used to the wierd.

 

As to the girls affected, mine came up with a plan B for the following week and recruited two moms.

 

Did you say nuns?  

 

No, no, no.  A thousand times...no.  All of my Catholic school boys will quit if we invite the nuns on our camping trips.  It sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it.