The issue with girls in Scouting

[skeptic]

"Gender fluidity".  Cannot say I had seen that term before, but it seems to fit in the modern discussions.

[Hawkwin]

I can see it now, male Scouter self identifying as a female Scouter so that girls can camp.

 

That is essentially the problem with such a restriction. These days gender is fluid and in some cases, completely lacks specificity. People are now identifying as non-gendered or gender-neutral.

 

Thanks for the information on Venturing. I wonder how they handle such situations of trans and gay parents. I don't see how in the age in which we live, the gender of the chaperone provides any assurance. Certainly decades ago when it was only men and boys camping, violations still happened.

[Hawkwin]

I will add, that there are currently 4 or 5 states that now even allow people to declare "X" or non-gendered on their state driver licenses. I imagine that list of states will grow over time. What would BSA do about such an adult that wants to go camping? Do they get to count as both?

 

As it pertains specifically to this topic, what keeps a person born a girl, simply declaring she is a boy so that she can be in BSA already? Maybe for her/him, being a "boy" simply means a desire to hike and camp? Gender is becoming so undefined these days that it starting to lose any validity as a means to differentiate.

 

We already allow self-declared transgendered scouts to join. The cat is out of the proverbial bag and it isn't likely to go back in.

[walk in the woods]

Gender is becoming so undefined these days that it starting to lose any validity as a means to differentiate.

This may be true in the big blue bubbles, but.....

 

This is a really big country, there is a huge cost to assuming that social activism has established norms on any issue. Although this particular forum would allow me to delve further, I'll stop there.

[Hawkwin]

This may be true in the big blue bubbles, but.....

 

Not so sure about that; or perhaps more accurately, true for now. The suicide by cop Georgia Tech student (clearly a red state) identified as "nonbinary" and "intersex." I would guess that there are more such students on Georgia Tech's campus - and that student was a Georgia resident, not someone from the blue bubbles. While certainly a minority of the population, BSA has already said that someone like him could have been a member of Boy Scouts.

 

As long as the CO accepts the new and current membership rules (removal of the ban on sexual preference and acceptance of trans scouts), I don't see how adding girls that haven't declared to be transgendered any more of the "camel's nose." Again, the cat is already out.

 

For those COs that don't accept such, I doubt anything is about to change. Heck, I am not positive my CO would change. We might still have such bans in place. I don't honestly know.

[Eagledad]

What about a strait Scout tenting with a gay scout. When this question was brought up during the gay drama a couple of years ago, it was received as a form of prejudice or hate. Is that situation really any different than a male scout tenting with a female?

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

I don't see how in the age in which we live, the gender of the chaperone provides any assurance. Certainly decades ago when it was only men and boys camping, violations still happened.

It doesn't provide any "assurance." None of the YP rules provide any "assurance" of anything, ever, and as far as I know the BSA has never claimed that they do. They use the term "barriers to abuse" and that is what they are.  Barriers that, unfortunately, can be overcome if a person has a combination of determination and luck in overcoming them.  The rules make things more difficult for someone who wants to do something wrong, and the hope is that the person won't take the chance, but there are no guarantees.

[mgood777]

Venturing requires at least one male and at least one female adult for coed crews and coed campouts.

This was the rule in Exploring long before there was such a thing as Venturing. And it was as far back as I'm aware, the rule for coed Philmont crews. I assume if BSA makes Cub Scouts and/or Boy Scouts coed, the same rule will apply.

As far as I can find, there's no rule against having an all-male youth crew with all female adults, or an all female youth crew with all male adults. But if you have boys and girls, you must have men and women. I've always found this mildly amusing.

 

 

As it pertains specifically to this topic, what keeps a person born a girl, simply declaring she is a boy so that she can be in BSA already?

 

I've asked this question several times. I even asked National Commissioner Charles Dahlquist. The best answer I got was "A Scout is Trustworthy." The implication, to me, is that a girl who lies on her application and says she identifies as a boy just to get in Scouting, is not living by the Scout Law and not going to make it very far. Certainly others in her troop will know if she lives as a boy all the time or if it's just an act she puts on at Scout activities.

 

 

It doesn't provide any "assurance." None of the YP rules provide any "assurance" of anything, ever, and as far as I know the BSA has never claimed that they do. They use the term "barriers to abuse" and that is what they are.  Barriers that, unfortunately, can be overcome if a person has a combination of determination and luck in overcoming them.  The rules make things more difficult for someone who wants to do something wrong, and the hope is that the person won't take the chance, but there are no guarantees.

 

Like locks on doors are not going to keep out a determined thief. You try to make your home appear to be a tougher target than it's worth in hopes that predators move on. Same thing, YP makes it difficult for an adult to be alone with a youth in Scouting. Not impossible. The cynic in me says that it's all primarily to protect BSA from lawsuits. But at the same time it protects adult leaders from false accusations. (You have a witness.) As well as protecting youth from sexual predators or even physically abusive leaders.

[ParkMan]

I think you're worrying about this too much.  Once the BSA goes co-ed, the rules will need to change.  Could you imagine if every den meeting, event, activity, camping trips were to require both male & female adult leaders.  It would never happen.  Further - one set of rules for a co-ed pack, but another for a single sex pack. 

 

Once the BSA goes co-ed, then it will be two deep leadership - regardless of sex of the leader.

[qwazse]

I think you're worrying about this too much.  Once the BSA goes co-ed, the rules will need to change.  Could you imagine if every den meeting, event, activity, camping trips were to require both male & female adult leaders.  It would never happen.  Further - one set of rules for a co-ed pack, but another for a single sex pack. 

 

Once the BSA goes co-ed, then it will be two deep leadership - regardless of sex of the leader.

?

Two-deep leadership applies to overnight activities. My understanding is that is what we are talking about. And, I don't see BSA backing down on requiring at least two leaders, one of opposite sex to the others, if youth of opposite sex are on an overnight.

 

For meetings and other half-day activities, no on-on-one contact applies.

[Hawkwin]

I've asked this question several times. I even asked National Commissioner Charles Dahlquist. The best answer I got was "A Scout is Trustworthy." The implication, to me, is that a girl who lies on her application and says she identifies as a boy just to get in Scouting, is not living by the Scout Law and not going to make it very far. Certainly others in her troop will know if she lives as a boy all the time or if it's just an act she puts on at Scout activities.

 

 

There's the rub, what is, "lives as a boy?" I don't mean that question to be facetious. I am simply illustrating that such may be getting difficult to define these days. Who gets to define "living as a boy" when someone can claim to be a boy at any time? I would imagine that there are troops in some states that are already applying a lot of flexibility to the recent rule change on trans scouts.

 

 

What gender is a trans boy (someone born a girl) that still dresses like a traditional girl but likes traditional boy stuff? Are we defined by our attire or how we act? What if the scout claims to be both/neither?

 

I think of California where people are allowed to claim no gender on their state ID and driver licenses. I assume that schools may allow students to make the same declaration. What is a single-gender organization to do in that situation?

[Eagle1993]

I think it's the units call. Right now the policy is boys only. So if someone is gender fluid they are not eligible. If someone is a girl they are not eligible. Only those that are boys, and today that includes transgender boys, are eligible. Remember that these boys will be using restrooms, showers, etc with other boys. If someone is a girl, I highly doubt they would want to "trick" nationals by pretending they are transgender and identify as a boy with everything else that entails.

 

I agree this is not an easy situation to navigate but I don't think we are talking about 99% of the youth population. We are talking about 0.3 - 0.6% that are considered Transgender. Assuming half are boys that would mean 0.15 - 0.3% of youth fall into that category... compared to ~50% of youth that are girls. I don't think we need to now add girls to scouts just because we added transgender boys and there may be some others that have fluid gender identities. I'm not saying we shouldn't add girls but I don't see this as a reason we should.

[walk in the woods]

... and that student was a Georgia resident, not someone from the blue bubbles. 

Well, not so much.  Student was from The Atlanta area.  If you look at the election results (http://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/georgia/) you'll see the counties around Atlanta are blue to deep blue, just not enough to swing the state.

[Snow Owl]

Has anyone gotten anything official?  Our SE never tells us anything so we are officially the last to know. 

 

I am NOT trying to reopen or open he discussion of yes or no, or the Pros and Cons, just looking for any current info.

[NJCubScouter]

Has anyone gotten anything official?  Our SE never tells us anything so we are officially the last to know. 

 

I am NOT trying to reopen or open he discussion of yes or no, or the Pros and Cons, just looking for any current info.

 

There has been so much conflicting information coming from council people (as reported by various people in this forum) that I would not believe anything other than an official statement from National.  And I think that when that happens, we'll all know it.