Inquiries for Girls

[Col. Flagg]

We need the information from the girls just like we do for the boys.  It all goes into Packmaster.  We still need to know their birthday and how to contact them etc.  We collect this information on all the Scouts not because BSA needs it but because we need it.   We treat everyone the same - as best we can.   They have the same rules to follow etc. 

 

And They are covered by insurance just like any other participant would be.  We have had both the national insurance policies (self insurance and excess riders) and the council policies reviewed and have zero concern about insurance.

 

One of the girls parents is a registered adult for many reasons.  so we are not decreasing the scout to leader ratio in any way by adding the girls for every girl we increase the number of leaders by 1.  It ensures they know the youth protection rules as well as the Scout program.  They are vetted to be a leader on the any trip so we the pack does not have to worry about the female leader for a female scout.

What's this program you're running called? I have never heard of a Cub Scout pack collecting applications on non-members and tracking them in PackMaster...or any other software.

 

Since girls aren't part of the program why does all the back office stuff matter?

 

Do you give them patches and ranks too?

[thrifty]

As a side note, it's also incredibly sad to me that Star Wars has largely become a franchise for girls. more so than boys.

 

Right now there's a commercial running in which a dad and his daughter are hard at work making...of all things...a pinewood derby car! And then at the end of the commercial they cut to a whole bunch of girls (not in any type of uniforms) apparently having their own pinewood derby...seriously?? Where did that come from... 

 

I would consider myself a big Star Wars fan.  Myself and my friends are happy to have more SW fans regardless of whether they are male or female.  Maybe geeks would find it easier to get a date.    Also, the girl scouts in our area have been doing pinewood derbies for many years.  I don't know how it started but they get their cars weighed and they are invited to our CO to use our track after our event is over.  They put just as much effort into their cars and they look great.

 

And why is it sad that girls might like Star Wars too??? Why do you think boys need exclusive ownership of this sci-fi soap opera, especially the little franchised dolls?

They're not dolls!  They're action figures!  Such a mom thing to say.

[bsaggcmom]

Why would the program have to be watered down for girls to take part? What would you water down? I wouldn't water down anything. 20 nights of camping for camping merit badge, same swim requirements, same hiking requirements. Personal fitness requirements are individually based, do your pre-test, do your interim tests, do a post test, improve from where you started. What do you fear will be watered down?

 

The girls that want in don't want watered down scouts they want scouts as it is now.

 

Almost nothing needs to change for girls to come aboard. Most units in my area have coed adult leadership anyway. Are you afraid a girl or woman will out camp/out knot/out scout a boy or man and make them feel inadequate? I've said several times on different threads here that my girls out do any of the 3 troop of boys that I've been in the outdoors. The girls backpack, camp more as a troop, hike more and generally recreate more outdoors than the boys troops I've been involved in.  Oh, and they are more girl run too. Just like Hawkwin's daughter's troop.    

[Col. Flagg]

Female leader shortage. I live in the biggest district in my council. Three troops have female leaders of 25 units. Our unit has the most at three. The others have one each. That's five total. If we went coed we would need as many female leaders as we have male ones to cover events. I don't see that happening. There aren't many women who can carry a 50 lbs pack and want to take a 12-day trek.

 

At least not where I live and I'm in a big metro area.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[SSF]

Why would the program have to be watered down for girls to take part? What would you water down? I wouldn't water down anything. 20 nights of camping for camping merit badge, same swim requirements, same hiking requirements. Personal fitness requirements are individually based, do your pre-test, do your interim tests, do a post test, improve from where you started. What do you fear will be watered down?

 

The girls that want in don't want watered down scouts they want scouts as it is now.

 

Almost nothing needs to change for girls to come aboard. Most units in my area have coed adult leadership anyway. Are you afraid a girl or woman will out camp/out knot/out scout a boy or man and make them feel inadequate? I've said several times on different threads here that my girls out do any of the 3 troop of boys that I've been in the outdoors. The girls backpack, camp more as a troop, hike more and generally recreate more outdoors than the boys troops I've been involved in.  Oh, and they are more girl run too. Just like Hawkwin's daughter's troop.    

 

I may be wrong but I believe that what Eagledad was referring to, when he mentioned watering down the program, was not how advancement standards would have to be lowered to accommodate girls necessarily, but rather how the inclusion of girls into the BSA  program would represent a huge change to this program and organization; which was originally created as a program to meet the needs of boys.

 

That's why the name of the organization is the Boy Scouts of America, not the Boys and Girls Scouts of America. 

 

Glad to hear that your girls do so much outdoors and are so adept in their scout skills. Right or wrong though, it's a bit boastful though, IMHO, to say and imply that your girls are better scouts than the boys. 

 

Again, this is the cultural shift I referenced earlier, i.e. War Against Boys.

[ianwilkins]

Meanwhile, in the UK, in The Scout Association that used to be called the Boy Scout Association but changed.

 

Wednesday night we had seven new starters in Explorers. Three girls, four boys. We played some games, and talked about what they want to do this term.

 

Last weekend we had 25 camping, 13 girls and 12 boys. Some hammocked, some were in teepees (well, strictly speaking Nordic Lavvu really, but no one knows what that is).

 

On summer camp we were at the Spanish National Jamboree on the canary islands, and as it happened one boy and one girl (by chance) got selected for the hike to the top of Mount Teide, the highest point in Spain. Both climbed the same mountain and saw the sunrise ("amazing" apparently).

 

Next month we'll be selecting who's coming to visit you in 2019. The selection weekend will be the same for all of them.

 

I do remember when UK Scouting changed from single sex, and there were similar arguments raised to those I see here. Staunchly opposed leaders left. There was change, and it wasn't always handled well.

 

I wish you the best of luck in your journey, I hope the road isn't too bumpy.

 

Ian

[DuctTape]

Character is not different, but the techniques and environment for developing character can have a huge impact for developing character. I guess we can rehash this again, but it's been mentioned several times in these discussions that non coed education has a positive effect in development. 

 

I guess the question is really more of how much watering down of a program is worth going coed? I don't know the answer, I'm sure it also depends on the SMs. But is it worth the risk?

 

Barry

It has been mentioned several times, however the body of research into that claim is mixed. For every study in support, there is one that refutes. The same is true for research suggesting coed is better, that research is mixed. I believe the reason for the inconclusive research is that humans differ greatly in so many ways that any attempt to find a single variable which explains the differences is futile.

[Col. Flagg]

Meanwhile, @@RichardB chastises a Scouter in another thread for "not running the right program" even though the idea is totally something a good district or council would do.

 

Hey @@RichardB, THIS is the thread you should be throwing your BSA indignation at. They have girls in Cub Scouts. Heck they're even taking applications and they say council knows. How about you rant a bit here, huh?

[Snow Owl]

What's this program you're running called? I have never heard of a Cub Scout pack collecting applications on non-members and tracking them in PackMaster...or any other software.

 

Since girls aren't part of the program why does all the back office stuff matter?

 

Do you give them patches and ranks too?

It's called Cub Scouts, maybe you've heard of it

 

It has been mentioned several times, however the body of research into that claim is mixed. For every study in support, there is one that refutes. The same is true for research suggesting coed is better, that research is mixed. I believe the reason for the inconclusive research is that humans differ greatly in so many ways that any attempt to find a single variable which explains the differences is futile.

 

Yes the research is mixed and sporadic.  A large body of the "research" is more anecdotal than actual peer reviewed research.  There are too many variable at play in addition to the gender issue.  If you include research from across the pond it really brings to question the pros and cons of coed vs. single gender.

 

We live in a coed world and a change is coming - the sooner we start figuring it out the better. 

 

Scout on    

[RememberSchiff]

Meanwhile, @@RichardB chastises a Scouter in another thread for "not running the right program" even though the idea is totally something a good district or council would do.

 

Hey @@RichardB, THIS is the thread you should be throwing your BSA indignation at. They have girls in Cub Scouts. Heck they're even taking applications and they say council knows. How about you rant a bit here, huh?

 

If anything, National should take how-to notes from a successful coed unit

Edited September 15, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[RememberSchiff]

It's called Cub Scouts, maybe you've heard of it

 

 

Yes the research is mixed and sporadic.  A large body of the "research" is more anecdotal than actual peer reviewed research.  There are too many variable at play in addition to the gender issue.  If you include research from across the pond it really brings to question the pros and cons of coed vs. single gender.

 

We live in a coed world and a change is coming - the sooner we start figuring it out the better. 

 

Scout on    

 

Some of your critics have stated that boys will leave or not join a coed scout program, have you seen this with your unit?

 

Have families seeking to have all their sons and daughters in one unit, transferred their scout sons to your unit and enrolled their daughters?

[Col. Flagg]

@@Snow Owl, Cub Scouts is for boys. Not sure what this program is.

[Eagledad]

It's called Cub Scouts, maybe you've heard of it

 

 

Yes the research is mixed and sporadic.  A large body of the "research" is more anecdotal than actual peer reviewed research.  There are too many variable at play in addition to the gender issue.  If you include research from across the pond it really brings to question the pros and cons of coed vs. single gender.

 

We live in a coed world and a change is coming - the sooner we start figuring it out the better. 

 

Scout on    

I don't know, between this post and your reasoning for discouraging OA, I almost get the feeling your are anti-male. Equalizing the sexes seems to be how you rationalize your hostility. Yes, I know, psycho babble. But I haven't seen much in your post that show otherwise.

 

Watered down? Your program is already watered down simply by discouraging OA. Adult fears and ignorance are the biggest obstacles to allowing growth that comes from making decisions. I get the feeling your weren't a boy scout as a youth.

 

A lot of folks say the studies are mixed. The studies have been around for a long time as well as single sex education. No one disagreed or argued with the facts until recently when mixed genders became fashionable.

 

Watered down has a lot of implications here, but in large the program will loose the foundation of character growth from the practice of moral and ethical decisions. I have watched the program change in the last 20 dramatically away from scouts independently driving their activities to more adult driven activities. I believe part of it is due to a more fearing helicopter parenting mentality. But the other part is that fewer adult leaders have the youth experience to carry over the scouting spirit of the program. The reason we are seeing so much more advancement driven program is because the advancement process for adults is easy to understand and measure. 

 

Building character from freedom of choice doesn't have the instant measurement of unit performance like advancement. Stature is also measureable, and since leadership is a requirement of advancement, scouts are getting less freedom to choose how and when they will lead, leaving the adults to drive a program that places the boys into leadership slots so that their advancement will continue. 

 

Adults that don't have the experience of character growth by learning from independent choices typically don't trust the notion of the process. So, that is why adults without a youth experience naturally gravitate toward the measureable part of the program. We are watching the progression of the troop program changing to Webelos III.

 

Barry

[Snow Owl]

@@Snow Owl, Cub Scouts is for boys. Not sure what this program is.

We'll have to agree to disagree -

[Col. Flagg]

We'll have to agree to disagree -

No. We don't. Cub Scouts does not allow girls. So unless you can show where BSA condones accepting apps for girls and applying the Cub program to them, your running something that's NOT Cub Scouts.

 

It would be like me letting my Scouts shoot pistols. BSA says no but I thumb my nose and say "Sure, why not." Or maybe I let my Cubs ride ATVs. Why not? They're just rules, right?