RememberSchiff Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Group A has the program you want but does not want you. Group B wants you but will not offer the program you want. Program matters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Here's the problem: If we are asking BSA to change to accept girls, why can't we ask GSUSA to change to meet the demand of the very group they purport to service? Why should BSA have to change to meet the needs so girls? Who is "we"? It is the BSA that has apparently decided to make a change. As for the GSUSA, you can ask them whatever you want. The BSA does not "have to" change to meet the needs of girls. It apparently WANTS to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Who is "we"? It is the BSA that has apparently decided to make a change. As for the GSUSA, you can ask them whatever you want. The BSA does not "have to" change to meet the needs of girls. It apparently WANTS to change. Well some of us want it to change, but we also really like our fellow scouters who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Group A has the program you want but does not want you. Group B wants you but will not offer the program you want. Program matters. Group A (BSA) has a program for boys that some girls (not all girls) want. If you change your membership to allow girls in Cubs and Boy Scouts you will lose a % of those who want a traditional single-sex program. You will also have to change the program a bit to meet the demands of girls. If you think you can just get ride of the gender-based pronouns in the Cub and Boy Scout programs and satisfy the female "demand", you are out of touch. Group B (GSUSA) could more easily make their program more Boy Scout-like...if they want. Who is "we"? It is the BSA that has apparently decided to make a change. As for the GSUSA, you can ask them whatever you want. The BSA does not "have to" change to meet the needs of girls. It apparently WANTS to change. BSA meaning a few of the organizational leaders, not BSA the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Well some of us want it to change, but we also really like our fellow scouters who don't. No argument there. This reminds me of the old joke, How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but the lightbulb has to really WANT to change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 @@SSF The problem with GSUSA is how it is organized, and the local leadership. Many threads on this site discuss closed GSUSA troops where a leader won't take a girl if she doesn't have the right color hair, go to the right school/church, isn't BBFs with leader's daughter, etc, etc, etc. Also,if the individual troop leadership doesn't do mud, bugs, tent camping neither do the girls in the troop. If you have a arts and crafts leader your troop is arts and crafts. GSUSA also makes it very hard for a leader to take her girls camping, they must take several "classes" to be certified to do it. Heck, you can't start a fire without having taken a class. It is interesting that you mention this. My GS daughter just had her first meeting with her new troop and the girls voted on the activities they would do for this year (planning meeting that is scout led, what?!?!?) and the girls voted to go camping. My daughter was one of the majority that voted for that activity. I was both shocked and proud of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwin Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) there is no difference between the two sexes is, to me, highly objectionable. Curious. What part of the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, or Code do you think should be different for girls? Please, this is not an attempt to be facetious but is there a way a girl would do First Aid that is different than a boy? How about how they would do a bowline knot? Hike five miles? What are the differences that concern you? This isn't to suggest that girls and boys may not have different interests (boys might prefer football while girls might prefer cheerleading, for a generalize example) or certainly different body parts but I fail to see how the activities of BSA are necessarily genders-specific or gender-biased in a way that creates a "difference" that requires exclusion. I remain open to any insight you or others can provide on such. Edit: Fixed minor typo. Edited September 14, 2017 by Hawkwin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Curious. What part of the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, or Code do you think should be different for girls? Please, this is not an attempt to be facetious but is there a way a girl would do First Aid that is different than a boy? How about how they would do a bowline knot? Hike five miles? What are the differences that concern you? This isn't to suggest that girls and boys may not have different interests (boys might prefer football while girls might prefer cheerleading, for a generalize example) or certainly different body parts but I fail to see how the activities of BSA are necessarily genders-specific or gender-biased in a way that creates a "difference" that requires exclusion. I remain open to any insight you or others can provide on such. Edit: Fixed minor typo. Character is not different, but the techniques and environment for developing character can have a huge impact for developing character. I guess we can rehash this again, but it's been mentioned several times in these discussions that non coed education has a positive effect in development. I guess the question is really more of how much watering down of a program is worth going coed? I don't know the answer, I'm sure it also depends on the SMs. But is it worth the risk? Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Owl Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 We do not "actively recruit" girls but we have girls in our pack both siblings and none siblings. They were a class b t-shirt but other than the uniform they do everything the boys do. We collect the same dues and application from everyone as well as Med form A & B. For the girls we have the parents fill out an adult app and we register the adult as a leader or reserve. This is our 3rd year with non sibling girls and we have had zero issues. We are ready for the scout age girls when that issue arises as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 We collect the same dues and application from everyone as well as Med form A & B. You turn in applications for girls to council and they accept them? And they are processed as part of your roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Owl Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 You turn in applications for girls to council and they accept them? And they are processed as part of your roster? no we turn in the apps for their parent and we keep the girl app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle90 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 A Scout is Trustworthy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 no we turn in the apps for their parent and we keep the girl app. Sorry, but why do you have apps for girls? What's the point? They're not covered by insurance. What purpose does having the girl's parents fill out an app serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Owl Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) no we turn in the apps for their parent and we keep the girl app. A Scout is Trustworthy Not sure if that is directed at me or not - But to be clear, Council knows we are doing this, the girls who join also know what we are doing, we are hiding nothing nor falsifying anything. Edited September 15, 2017 by NJCubScouter Reformatted to clarify who's saying what when Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Owl Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Sorry, but why do you have apps for girls? What's the point? They're not covered by insurance. What purpose does having the girl's parents fill out an app serve? We need the information from the girls just like we do for the boys. It all goes into Packmaster. We still need to know their birthday and how to contact them etc. We collect this information on all the Scouts not because BSA needs it but because we need it. We treat everyone the same - as best we can. They have the same rules to follow etc. And They are covered by insurance just like any other participant would be. We have had both the national insurance policies (self insurance and excess riders) and the council policies reviewed and have zero concern about insurance. One of the girls parents is a registered adult for many reasons. so we are not decreasing the scout to leader ratio in any way by adding the girls for every girl we increase the number of leaders by 1. It ensures they know the youth protection rules as well as the Scout program. They are vetted to be a leader on the any trip so we the pack does not have to worry about the female leader for a female scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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