POR question

[HelpfulTracks]

My troop has many scouts of first class or higher.  

 

what POR do other units double up on besides PL and APL?

 

I would ask your scouts what the troop needs.

 

As troops grow and their program becomes more involved (hopefully the scouts are developing more involved programs) then the needs for PoR grows.

 

Some troops have more than one ASPL. If you have more than one NSP then you will need more Troop Guides. Multiple instructors can be handy for busy troops. Multiple Den Chiefs is almost always a good idea, remember that the Scout is attending meetings for Troop and Pack. Packs may have 2 or more Webelos/AoL dens. IF you are working with multiple packs that also comes into play.

 

I have seen larger troops that have more than one outing a month have 2 QM's (one for each outing) or they may have 2 QM's with different responsibilities. I have also seen troops with 2 Historians, one that is more of a creator (photographer and writer and the other is a collector and organizer). Depending on the troops Website and Library size, both of those could have 2 or more PoR involved. Scribes are another option. IF Scribes are really doing what all is expected of them for an active troop, that is a load of work. THey work with Treasurer to track dues and expenditures, keep attendance, PLC and meeting notes, and work with Advancement Chair to track advancement.

 

We have a volunteer who is upset because the same people appear to get elected SPL and PLs. He wants to appoint all positions.  IT DOES NOT WORK! (emphasis).  Some Scouts who are appointed have no interest in the POR and could care less. Some Scouts who are interested, but do not have the knowledge, skills or abilities to do it. Other Scouts, seeing this then act indifferent or with disrespect towards them. Long story short, the troop slowly dies.

 

 

I've seen one troop do just that. As soon as the new SM started appointing PLs and the SPL so that "everyone gets a chance,"

 the troop started losing members to other troops, or outright quitting.

 

He needs to pump the breaks, everyone is getting a chance unless someone is telling some scouts they cannot run. The Scouts will choose who they feel are the best leaders. You could encourage the SPL to challenge some of those that are routinely being elected to PL positions by assigning them to Troop Guide, Instructor or some other position.

 

But outside of that or the SM asking a multi-term SPL to be a JASM then the adults needs to stay out of it.

 

They don’t. I never had any requirement signed off for any of those no Leadership less work positions. I wouldn’t allow the troop to do that.

 

I have to disagree with you on this ItsBrian.

 

First, BSA defines it as Position of Responsibility, not Leadership Role. Some PoR's do have direct leadership roles, but not all and that is why BSA defines it that way.

 

Second, when you say you would not allow a troop to do that. I assume that means if you where the SM. But the SM does not have the authority to change requirements. If BSA says a PoR meets the requirements for rank, the SM cannot say otherwise. HE could say we will not have that role, but that is drifting away from boy led.

 

Third, depending on how a troop functions a Webmaster, Historian and Librarian can have their hands full. IF you don't expect much from them and set the bar low, then you won't get much from them usually, because they may not know or understand what they can and should be doing. But if set the bar high, then those are worthy jobs.  For example:

1. A full library can have a huge number of resources, MB pamphlets, Leadership Guide (SPL, PL) and possibly troop developed leader guides. There are the 3 program books, which some troops check out by chapter for Patrols/Scouts to plan meetings and outings. There are troop forms (Meal planning, duty roster etc), non-scouting books that supplement skills (cookbooks, knots, first aid, pioneering edible plants etc.) As well as other Scouting guides like Guide to Safe Scouting, Advancement Guide, Uniform and Insignia, Scout Leader and Committee Guides. Some troops keep issues of Boy's Life and Scouters Magazine. A well stocked library could have hundred of books in it and take a great deal of effort to maintain.
2. Websites can take a great deal of effort to collect and write articles, take photos and manipulate them, upload and maintain content and calendars.
3. The same is true for historians that do research, take photos, collect newspaper articles, interview former scouts from the troop, create displays, catalog and maintain records of activities and individual/troop awards and write and create newsletters.

[HelpfulTracks]

Oh, I forgot Bugler. A good Bugler is priceless and entertaining.

 

I have not seen an active Bugler since I was a Scout, but there was one troop that really had a great one and used him. In fact that young man held the Bugler Position for 4 or 5 years. He even maintained that position when he held other PoR.

 

He played trumpet for a local high school band. We would see them at Camporee or Summer Camp. He played Reveille and Taps twice each day. He also called Assembly, Mess and a few other calls. My favorite was each morning at Summer camp his troop would assemble after breakfast, the SPL would talk and then send them out to whatever activities they had planed. HE normally played assembly to call everyone together but in this event he would play First Call to gather them (that is what you hear at horse races) and to send them off he would play charge. It was awesome.

 

You could hear his calls echoing all over Summer camp. A few adults and scouts grumbled at Reveille each morning but that troop always seemed so well organized as far as being where they should be and on time. We got to the point when we heard him play mess we would head back to our own camp for meals, we would start settling down for the night when he played Tatoo and shut out the lights when he played Taps. 

 

He could also play the harmonica like nobodies business. Like a said, a good Bugler is priceless and entertaining.

[blw2]

There many positions in scouting. Here are a few.

• Senior Patrol Leader  
• Assistant Senior Patrol Leader
• Patrol Leader
• Troop Guide
• Quartermaster
• Scribe
• Den Chief
• Chaplain Aide
• Historian
• Instructor
• Librarian
• Webmaster
• Order of the Arrow Representative
• Outdoor Ethics Guide
• Junior Assistant Scoutmaster

Linked to descriptions of each.

 

Den Chiefs - If you have a Pack that is with your Troop you can easily have them take a training, and place a scout in each den. I was a den chief for a few years, it's not difficult, it's just like being an instructor or guide.

 

Asst. Senior Patrol Leaders - My troop doesn't personally do this, but an idea I've had, having the ASPLs have a certain job, such as one for training, fundraising, meetings, etc. Not sure if that's allowed, would check with your local council. 

 

Instructors, Guides, Historians, Webmasters, JASMS - You can easily have at least two-three each for these positions if you have a big troop. 

I'll have to admit to not really reading the whole thread thoroughly

The issue I see is 

Many of these "positions" really aren't positions.  We have a historian, and a librarian, and many of the others....but these guys really don't do much of anything if at all.  They are empty jobs, the scouts know it, so what good does that do anyone?

 

I really think it's bad to try to have every scout in a position just becasue

I think it would be better to let the scouts work it out and the PLC could help scouts that need a POR by helping them to find actual positions that need to be filled.....or to make sure the guys that need and want it are first in line the next time a position opens

[Col. Flagg]

I'll have to admit to not really reading the whole thread thoroughly

The issue I see is 

Many of these "positions" really aren't positions.  We have a historian, and a librarian, and many of the others....but these guys really don't do much of anything if at all.  They are empty jobs, the scouts know it, so what good does that do anyone?

 

I really think it's bad to try to have every scout in a position just becasue

I think it would be better to let the scouts work it out and the PLC could help scouts that need a POR by helping them to find actual positions that need to be filled.....or to make sure the guys that need and want it are first in line the next time a position opens

I agree with your argument that some positions lack real substance. As @@mashmaster and I have quipped once already, I think the REAL problem is how BSA defines the roles AND setting up substantive, quantitative criteria for the Scouts to follow in order to ascertain if they are fulfilling the role. Units share in this failure too on not setting up such criteria whereby the Scout can track and measure their progress during their POR.

 

For example, the Historian has a job description but it is pretty antiquated and in some units may not be even relevant or practical to implement. It's then that the unit has to step in and customize the position and develop that measurable criteria the Scout can follow.

 

Same with PL. Sure we have the PL Handbook but it lacks sample processes the PL can follow to successfully execute his job. Okay, some will argue this is done on purpose to get the PL to think. Okay, I agree. HOWEVER, then the TLT (or ILST) training needs to be more focused on process for EACH position (as well as conflict resolution, goal setting and such) in order to arm the new leaders with the tools they need to be successful. Lastly you need adult leaders who can mentor and offer timely advice, not "Well Johnny you suck at SPL so we're replacing you."

[qwazse]

.... Units share in this failure too on not setting up such criteria whereby the Scout can track and measure their progress during their POR....

Share? It is entirely the unit's fault. (I'm including mine here.)

 

For example, I can't possibly give you the benchmark for your Librarian. I don't know what your space is like, how much literature you purchase, what the hand-me-down culture is of your scouts, your proximity to the scout-shop, you budget for a half-dozen electronic tablets, if you're all about the paper, if you need to build shelves, or lockers, or mobile storage with solar panels for recharging. Maybe you need a bevy of pamphlets. Maybe you need sheet music for your buglers and musicians. Maybe your honor guard needs a collection of historic flag pamphlets. I don't know. If I don't know any of that, how is National gonna possibly know? Figure out your own stinking benchmarks. Set them.

 

I've said the SPL's job isn't hard, really the only tough thing is asking others to do what you think is their job, and reviewing with them afterward in an affirming way. For example, based on discussions with the PLC and JASMs who've "been there, done that," the SPL should want the library to look a certain way. If it doesn't after a couple weeks, he asks the Librarian "Would you like to discuss it with the SM? Or, can I team you up with a JASM who had your job once? Just for this month?"

 

Oh, that's right, folks don't hand out JASM patches any more because, they bad-mouth older boys who sit around and don't do much but reminisce about "good old days" and "here's how it was done in my time." Then SM's complain that they can't keep track of all of the expectations on these dozens of PoR's.

 

Bottom line: expect more of your PoR's. Read the words on the patch. Ask the boys how the troop would look and feel if someone was living up to those words by putting in an hour of work every week. Go there.

[TAHAWK]

Benchmarks?!  Benchmarks?!!   We don' need no stinking benchmarks.  

[thrifty]

Expectations for certain roles should be higher.  Each scout should be asking themselves how can I make the position better or help improve the troop.

 

The most recent librarian was a no-show for most meetings.  We do elections once a year and my son is already thinking about the librarian role.  He's been PL twice and APL once.  He won't be able to go on some of the campouts so this position works better for him.  Yes, it will be less work than a PL position but that doesn't mean it is a lazy position.  He's already got ideas to promote his being given that position.  Making an inventory of all scout books, making pdf files of scout books (because we never have enough), maybe buying new books (because many of ours are old), etc...  And he's actually at the meetings so he can pass out books and create a log to keep track of them.

 

We previously had a scribe that didn't take notes.  Our most recent scribe, an older scout, does a fantastic job taking meeting notes and tracking attendance and then emails it to an adult for posting on our website.  The last scribe was just too young and I don't think he had anyone helping him.

 

I was told that our most recent historian was volun-told to do the position. (ASM's son)  He didn't want it and was very vocal about it.  He didn't even own a camera.  Not a single picture of a campout was taken.  The historian prior to him took pictures on every campout.  These were then posted to the troop website for parents to see and really help to keep the parents engaged. 

 

Just because a scout position doesn't require a direct leadership role, the position can still require responsibility and help the scout and troop grow.

Edited September 14, 2017 by thrifty

[Col. Flagg]

Share? It is entirely the unit's fault. (I'm including mine here.)

 

Fair points, @@qwazse. The reasons I said "share" in the fault is because BSA's training on how to do things -- whether at the Scout or Scouter level -- is woefully inadequate. Some folks may not have an idea of how to set performance benchmarks, establishing quantitative evaluation factors, etc. I think that if BSA is not going to adequately train the Scouters and Scouts to do such things, then they should, at very least, have examples in their literature (handbooks, position descriptions, etc.) on how to do just that.

 

Other than that, totally agree with your great points!

[mashmaster]

I have the position contracts that we have made, I am willing to share them if people are interested.  

[Col. Flagg]

I have the position contracts that we have made, I am willing to share them if people are interested.  

 

Yup we have the same. Great tools!

[Eagledad]

Share? It is entirely the unit's fault. (I'm including mine here.)

 

For example, I can't possibly give you the benchmark for your Librarian. I don't know what your space is like, how much literature you purchase, what the hand-me-down culture is of your scouts, your proximity to the scout-shop, you budget for a half-dozen electronic tablets, if you're all about the paper, if you need to build shelves, or lockers, or mobile storage with solar panels for recharging. Maybe you need a bevy of pamphlets. Maybe you need sheet music for your buglers and musicians. Maybe your honor guard needs a collection of historic flag pamphlets."" I don't know. If I don't know any of that, how is National gonna possibly know? Figure out your own stinking benchmarks. Set them.""

 

.

We developed a general set of benchmarks for all the positions in our troop. However, the expectations (benchmarks) are purposely set a bit generic because we ask each scout to define his own set of benchmarks that his will use to measure his performance. He writes his benchmarks in his book so that he and the SM can refer and discuss them later. We do that because benchmarks change as the unit grow and mature, and to tailor the benchmarks to each scout.  

 

BUT remember, growth is developed in the journey, not the destination. Sometimes scouts find they aren't very good with the particular responsibility. I have had many scouts grow considerably in character while failing to meet some of their benchmarks.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is for me, expectations (benchmarks) should be more of a guide for the SMs than a check list. 

 

Barry

[swilliams]

Brand new scout parent here.  My son has taken up the position of bugler for his troop.  I can see how it may not be as time-consuming or require as much input as other leadership positions, but I'm glad it's an option for us.  My son is a true introvert.  Just knowing he will be the focus of attention, even though it's only for a few seconds of everyone's time, almost sends him into a panic.  This won't be easy for him, but it will allow him to contribute in some way to the troop.  He and the SPL agreed on which calls he would do, and when, and my son knows that he needs to show up a few minutes early, since he'll be starting meetings with the 'assembly' call.  May not seem like much to some, but I'm very grateful for it.

[Eagledad]

Brand new scout parent here.  My son has taken up the position of bugler for his troop.  I can see how it may not be as time-consuming or require as much input as other leadership positions, but I'm glad it's an option for us.  My son is a true introvert.  Just knowing he will be the focus of attention, even though it's only for a few seconds of everyone's time, almost sends him into a panic.  This won't be easy for him, but it will allow him to contribute in some way to the troop.  He and the SPL agreed on which calls he would do, and when, and my son knows that he needs to show up a few minutes early, since he'll be starting meetings with the 'assembly' call.  May not seem like much to some, but I'm very grateful for it.

I think it is a great way for him to build confidence. Little steps is how I worked with scouts like your son as well. One introverted scout eventually became an SPL. Another severely introverted scout became a PL. The key is how the scouts accept your son in the group and it sounds like your SPL is there.

 

It depends how your troop uses them, but he might consider Quartermaster as the next step. It has a lot of responsibility with a medium requirement for communication with the patrols. It was another favorite for our shyer scouts. It's all about building confidence.

 

Sounds like you have a good troop there.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

When he gets to College, he may find 20% of his grade depends on classroom participation.    Not too soon to start getting him ready.  Nice "safe" way to start.

[swilliams]

When he gets to College, he may find 20% of his grade depends on classroom participation.    Not too soon to start getting him ready.  Nice "safe" way to start.

Class participation was always part of the kids' grades in NYC - elementary school, so not the end of the world.  One year my daughter came home with "meets expectations" instead of "needs improvement" in the class participation section.  At conference I told the teacher I was surprised she was participating.  He said, "She isn't, but I'm not going to penalize her for being who she is."  I broke down and cried like a baby.  It's been a rough road for these two kids, who are beyond the label of 'shy'.  My other two are the complete opposite.

 

We just returned from my older son's Court of Honor, where he 'bugled' for the first time.  Yes, he messed it up a little.  Missed the second high G, but he kept the timing and didn't stop, so I don't think half the audience noticed.  Not too many of the boys are familiar enough with the bugle calls to know the difference.  Maybe we can change that during his time as bugler.  His scoutmaster called for a round of applause for the new bugler (among other participants), and while he turned bright red, you could see he was happy with the enthusiasm with which he was greeted.