Daughter of Eagle Scout Perspective

[NJCubScouter]

Push BSA hard enough and they'll cry "uncle" over a splinter.

 

Miss Ireland knows which organization to bully. So does her lawyer parents.

 

As I have said before, BSA National is doing this because it wants to, not because anyone is forcing it to.  They see higher membership and higher revenue.  Whether they are seeing correctly is another question, but they are going to act based on what they think is going to happen, not what anyone here thinks is going to happen.

 

I really don't think a 16-year-old girl has BSA National quaking in their boots.  As for her "lawyer parents", I don't know.  I doubt it.  I don't think they have filed a lawsuit, have they?

[NJCubScouter]

Gold Award holders are treated the same as Eagle Scouts at least with respect to military enlistment - both can enlist at pay grade E-2 (Army, Air Force, Marines) or E-3 (Navy).

 

I didn't realize there was a difference between the services.  The page I linked to said E-3 and it did not seem to be Navy-specific.

[Col. Flagg]

As I have said before, BSA National is doing this because it wants to, not because anyone is forcing it to.  They see higher membership and higher revenue.  Whether they are seeing correctly is another question, but they are going to act based on what they think is going to happen, not what anyone here thinks is going to happen.

 

I really don't think a 16-year-old girl has BSA National quaking in their boots.  As for her "lawyer parents", I don't know.  I doubt it.  I don't think they have filed a lawsuit, have they?

It's their image that forces them to make the change. They don't care what their actual members think or feel.

[Eagle1993]

@@NJCubScouter. If they wanted to avoid any legal issue, I would think the BSA would revoke the charter of Troop 414 who is working with her on her quest for Eagle. I'm not a lawyer but I'm curious if she could argue that gender isn't a critical aspect of the program (since they allowed a Troop to work with her) and since she is going to be denied Eagle Scout (which clearly has value with scholarships, etc.) even after completing the work.. she would have standing. I wouldn't be shocked if this goes the legal route and NY State Supreme Court rules in her favor. I think US Supreme Court wouldn't (based on the last case) but the public relations hit would already be effective. I doubt it gets that far as I expect BSA to change their policy ahead of any legal challenges. However, if they really don't want to change I'm surprised they haven't been more aggressive with the Troop supporting her. This is really regardless of where anyone stands on admitting girls, the BSA clearly is letting this go on without any challenge which is a change on how they handled gay and transgender scouts in the past.

[qwazse]

... since she is going to be denied Eagle Scout (which clearly has value with scholarships, etc.) even after completing the work.. she would have standing. ...

That award doesn't have a lick of value compared to her track record of public statement. She'll benefit more from being denied Eagle.

I'd probably hire the kid if her resume came across my desk.

[Hawkwin]

@@NJCubScouter. If they wanted to avoid any legal issue, I would think the BSA would revoke the charter of Troop 414 who is working with her on her quest for Eagle. I'm not a lawyer but I'm curious if she could argue that gender isn't a critical aspect of the program (since they allowed a Troop to work with her) and since she is going to be denied Eagle Scout (which clearly has value with scholarships, etc.) even after completing the work.. she would have standing. I wouldn't be shocked if this goes the legal route and NY State Supreme Court rules in her favor. I think US Supreme Court wouldn't (based on the last case) but the public relations hit would already be effective. I doubt it gets that far as I expect BSA to change their policy ahead of any legal challenges. However, if they really don't want to change I'm surprised they haven't been more aggressive with the Troop supporting her. This is really regardless of where anyone stands on admitting girls, the BSA clearly is letting this go on without any challenge which is a change on how they handled gay and transgender scouts in the past.

 

 

On what possible grounds could they revoke the charter?

 

Are tag-alongs banned from participating in activities?

 

I would think that as long as she is not doing anything that might create liability (e.g. being in a canoe with a scout without having passed the BSA swim test) then she would be free to participate.

 

In looking at the various merit badges required for Eagle, I don't see anything that would directly violate a BSA rule. If you know of one, please share.

[Eagle1993]

@Hawkin. If the BSA felt that keeping girls out of scouting is core to their mission then any units that violate this core mission should face consequences. Otherwise, I could actually see an issues in the court. Just look at the last Supreme Court decision. The scouts only one on a 5-4 decision. They were allowed to violate the Nj state constitution as the BSA has a right to free association. However, if the BSA doesn't consistently enforce their rules and allows a girl to participate to the point of obtaining a rank I wonder if the court would question if the boys only is really required as part of their expressive association. Again, not a lawyer but the safer bet for the BSA, if they don't want to add girls, is to stop Sydney from participating to the point of obtaining rank. The GSUSA would never allow this.

 

I will say this has nothing to do with my opinion of girls in BSA or Sydney Ireland, only that I am surprised the BSA hasn't been more active enforcing membership rules inI this public case like they were in previous cases.

[NJCubScouter]

If they wanted to avoid any legal issue, I would think the BSA would revoke the charter of Troop 414 who is working with her on her quest for Eagle. I'm not a lawyer but I'm curious if she could argue that gender isn't a critical aspect of the program (since they allowed a Troop to work with her) and since she is going to be denied Eagle Scout (which clearly has value with scholarships, etc.) even after completing the work.. she would have standing. 

 

I don't know what you mean by the troop is "working with her on her quest for Eagle."  If that has been mentioned before, I must have missed it.  I'm not sure what significance any "working with" would have.  She is not a registered member of the troop or of the BSA, and she knows she isn't.  She knows she isn't currently eligible to earn Eagle or any other Boy Scout rank.  Presumably the troop has not submitted any advancements to council for her.  So I don't know what the troop is doing that would even warrant any attention from the BSA, much less a revocation of their charter.

[Eagle1993]

"I have found my space — and that is with Boy Scout Troop 414 in New York City. Contrary to what some might think, the Boy Scouts is not specifically tailored to boys. Its mission is to “prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law.â€

 

With the Cub Scouts, I went on camping trips, built my own wooden car for the pinewood derbies, learned about what firefighters do and even earned the highest award, the Arrow of Light. With the Boy Scouts, I have been able to learn and teach first aid, earn merit badges, earn lifeguard certification, complete the mile swim (twice) and even take on the role of patrol leader at camp. These opportunities were available to me because of the Boy Scouts, and although I am not yet officially recognized as a member, I would not have been able to learn or teach these life skills without the program."

 

There are other articles indicating Troop 414 has accepted her as an unofficial member of the Troop. It seems to open up legal questions if we are reallly boy only how can Troops have her serve as patrol leader. On a personal level she seems like an awesome leader and probably more deserving of her ranks than many boys, I'm just wondering why the BSA would allow this to continue and wonder what the legal implications could be.

[Hawkwin]

"I have found my space — and that is with Boy Scout Troop 414 in New York City. Contrary to what some might think, the Boy Scouts is not specifically tailored to boys. Its mission is to “prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law.â€

 

With the Cub Scouts, I went on camping trips, built my own wooden car for the pinewood derbies, learned about what firefighters do and even earned the highest award, the Arrow of Light. With the Boy Scouts, I have been able to learn and teach first aid, earn merit badges, earn lifeguard certification, complete the mile swim (twice) and even take on the role of patrol leader at camp. These opportunities were available to me because of the Boy Scouts, and although I am not yet officially recognized as a member, I would not have been able to learn or teach these life skills without the program."

 

There are other articles indicating Troop 414 has accepted her as an unofficial member of the Troop. It seems to open up legal questions if we are reallly boy only how can Troops have her serve as patrol leader. On a personal level she seems like an awesome leader and probably more deserving of her ranks than many boys, I'm just wondering why the BSA would allow this to continue and wonder what the legal implications could be.

 

As someone that fully support the rule of law, it would indeed appear that this council is breaking the current rules. There is no way she could have taken on the role of a patrol leader without a violation of the rules. She may have "earned" a merit badge by completing the work but she should not have been "awarded" or received a merit badge or the Arrow of Light.

 

Further investigation is warranted. A Troop should no more be providing her recognition for those accomplishments/education than they should be for an adult scout that has aged out of the troop.

[NJCubScouter]

The article by Ms. Ireland also quotes her as saying: "The only difference between me and my brother is that, as a girl, I am not eligible for official membership or recognition in the Boy Scouts."  So she knows she is not actually a member and that as far as the BSA is concerned, she is not earning these ranks.  She is not being deceived here, nor is she claiming to be - nor do I see how she could ever claim to be.  While I don't want to go into an analysis of your legal theory, I don't think these facts would bode well for any attempt by her to pursue the idea that you have mentioned.  (And there is no indication that she is trying to set up a lawsuit anyway.)

 

Besides which, we don't really know what the BSA, or the Greater New York Councils, knows about her and "her troop."  Even assuming that someone called this column in the Washington Post to the attention of either National or the council (which probably seems likely), it's been four days since it was published.  We can't assume that they aren't going to take any action - if only to write a letter making clear to both her and "her troop" that at the present time, she cannot be a member or be awarded any ranks.

[Peregrinator]

I didn't realize there was a difference between the services.  The page I linked to said E-3 and it did not seem to be Navy-specific.

 

I didn't realize it either until yesterday!

 

I did know that college credit seems to matter more than whether or not one is an Eagle Scout or Girl Scout Gold Awardee.