Proposal : Pioneering Certification

[RichardB]

 Eagle dude, please enlighten me I'm interested to know where you found such designs in the program of the BSA?   Really, not joking - I'd like to know.   

 

Now your examples appear to be from accross the pond.  And several, have some pretty significant fall exposure.   Opinion, they wouldn't have made it past a risk assessment by a competent or qualified group.  If your not familiar, Scouting in the UK requires a written risk assessment for all activities.    In some parts of the US those structures could be considered amusement devices, many of which would require state licensing and inspection.  Not sure they would pass that test either.  

 

I'd also wonder where did all that base material come from.  Most camps I'm familiar with really wouldn't want folks choping down trees to make a pioneer project each week from their natural resources.   

 

Finally, the folks gearing up for the WSJ have some great risk assessment tools and staff who know how to use them.  Very confident there is a plan.      

[Eagle94-A1]

Richard,

 

Just because something comes from across the pond, doesn't mean our Scouts would not be interested. Heck Scouting for Boys came from across the pond.

 

As for where ideas come from BSA's program, here are two links I found from councils' douments on pioneering projects.

 

http://www.pioneeringprojects.org/resources/ebooks/LeaderTrainingConference.pdf

 

http://www.pioneeringprojects.org/resources/ebooks/A32_PION_PROJECTS.pdf

 

If I had more time, I would start pulling historical BSA photos with now banned pioneering projects. My personal favorite is the 30' Signal Tower with a Scout on it from the 1937 NSJ. And if you want, I look at my collection of handbooks and field books when I get home.

 

But if you have time, and the museum is not already packed up and moved to Philmont, maybe a visit to the archives would show you some of the wonderful pioneering projects BSA allowed in the past.

 

Regarding supplies, with proper planning you can get them. For the Arial Runway project, my troop called it The Bosun Chair, we were able to get supplies. We either got them donated, or got permission to cut down. Helps to have someone with access to a tree farm.

 

EDITED:  Forgot to add, I used pictures from overseas deliberately to show relevance today. If BSA wants to use oveseas Scouting associations as models for going coed (the one going around looks like how the Finns do Scouting and Guiding), then why not use their examples for pioneering. But I did find that some Troops are ignoring the G2SS ban and making pioneering projects over 6 feet.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Eagle94-A1

[qwazse]

 ...  Opinion, they wouldn't have made it past a risk assessment by a competent or qualified group.  If your not familiar, Scouting in the UK requires a written risk assessment for all activities.    In some parts of the US those structures could be considered amusement devices, many of which would require state licensing and inspection.  Not sure they would pass that test either.  

 

I'd also wonder where did all that base material come from.  Most camps I'm familiar with really wouldn't want folks choping down trees to make a pioneer project each week from their natural resources.   

 

Finally, the folks gearing up for the WSJ have some great risk assessment tools and staff who know how to use them.  Very confident there is a plan.      

But that's the point, isn't it?

Train interested scouts and scouters in better risk assessment.

 

Look, these boys are going to own property and build buildings of their own someday. Hands-on experience is not that far-fetched. If we go through the safety routines in our program, we may save countless lives outside of it.

 

Regarding natural resources. Lumber is harvested and sold all the time. Putting aside reserve for scout-craft is part of land management.

If that is a "real" problem, I have two words: composite logs.

[RichardB]

Folks, it's 2017.   Not 1937 or 1996.   The program of the BSA is updated from time to time.    The OP has been asked and answered, if YOU would like to build these giant devices, feel free to do so, but please don't call it Scouting.   

[Eagle94-A1]

Folks, it's 2017.   Not 1937 or 1996.   The program of the BSA is updated from time to time.    The OP has been asked and answered, if YOU would like to build these giant devices, feel free to do so, but please don't call it Scouting.   

 

If pioneering is no longer considered Scoutcraft in 2017, then why is basic pioneeringskills still required for Scout, Tenderfoot,Second Class and  First Class ranks as well as a Pioneering Merit Badge, designed for 12 year olds as you mentioned, still around?

 

Pioneering is still a traditional Scoutcraft skill, still required for advancement,  has the potential to keep older Scouts involved if given the chance, AND had relevance in the 21st Century. Don't believe pioneering is relevant in the 21st? Ask the NASA astronaut who lashed the Space Shuttle's broken arm intoplace so that they could return to Earth.

 

Yes the OP has been answered. Sadly you and the rest of national do not see the point. The rules and regs are sucking the lifeblood out of Scouting.The ban on water guns made us a laughing stock nationally, and is ignored not only by volunteers but also professionals. At the one day camp, the DE said "Waterguns are no longered allowed by the BSA. So bring your personal water soaking devices to cool down.: The ban are wagons for under 14 and service projects caused a bunch of 8 year old Bears to laugh when I told htem about it. Yes, a bunch of 8 year olds thought the rule was a joke.  Look at the restrictions on power tools. You do realize that Girl Scouts can use powertools, but we cannot ? https://www.kansasgirlscouts.org/content/dam/kansasgirlscouts/documents/All%20Safety-Activity%20Checkpoints.pdf

 

Maybe should quit as a volunteer now. I should have realized when I worked for national back in the day that the powers that be do not listen to those of us with boots still on the ground until after the mistakes are made and a solution is needed to fix problems.

[HelpfulTracks]

Not sure what the issue is.   Pioneering is primarily a merit badge, designed for a scout (most are targeted at a 12 year old) to experience.   Not sure how setting up a training program is going to drive a need to go higher, bigger, etc.   High COPE elements by design need to meet ACCT standards for design, installation and operations.  Asking laymen to do something like this is actively discouraged.    Please see the COPE section of the GTSS.  

 

And if you would like to review the risk assessment documentation (found in 680-009 http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-009.pdfor 680-026 http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-026.pdf) on your own you will also find out that relying on training and procedures is low on the hierachy of controls.   Wouldn't really be applicable to the OP vision of success that would be training.           

 

I have been rather busy and not able to reply as quickly as I would have liked, but this thread seems to have taken on a life of it's own.

 

@@RichardB  - Pioneering is not primarily merit badge, it is an activity. An activity that excites Scouts and gets/keeps them engaged. Is camping primarily a merit badge? Is first aid? Is citizenship, orienteering, hiking etc.?

 

It is also disappointing to see the concept that we are programming most merit badges to be targeted to 12 a year old, it is no wonder we are loosing our older Scouts if that is the path that has been chosen.

 

I am not looking for training to drive higher, bigger pioneering. I am listening to our Scouts who want to build higher and bigger, and looking to create training that will meet their needs while maintaining an environment that meets reasonable safety guidelines.

 

As for laymen, I have run into some very capable laymen in Scouting, including engineers, project manager, construction foremen, military officers and more.

 

Thank you for the documentation, but I would argue that based on that documentation the idea of training Scouters is very much a part of the ERM program is advocating.

 

 

 Eagle dude, please enlighten me I'm interested to know where you found such designs in the program of the BSA?   Really, not joking - I'd like to know.   

 

Now your examples appear to be from accross the pond.  And several, have some pretty significant fall exposure.   Opinion, they wouldn't have made it past a risk assessment by a competent or qualified group.  If your not familiar, Scouting in the UK requires a written risk assessment for all activities.    In some parts of the US those structures could be considered amusement devices, many of which would require state licensing and inspection.  Not sure they would pass that test either.  

 

I'd also wonder where did all that base material come from.  Most camps I'm familiar with really wouldn't want folks choping down trees to make a pioneer project each week from their natural resources.   

 

Finally, the folks gearing up for the WSJ have some great risk assessment tools and staff who know how to use them.  Very confident there is a plan.      

 

Materials are actually very easy to find.  Twice in the last 6 months people that know my involvement in Scouting have offered material that was being cleared for construction.

 

I would also be curious what is different in UK Scouting is in regards to pioneering. Since they too are doing risk assessments but are still appear to be building structures that we are asking about, what is different? Are they experiencing significantly more injuries and deaths, are they training Scouters to do assessments and mitigation? Are they ignoring their own rules?

 

Folks, it's 2017.   Not 1937 or 1996.   The program of the BSA is updated from time to time.    The OP has been asked and answered, if YOU would like to build these giant devices, feel free to do so, but please don't call it Scouting.   

 

BSA program is updated from time to time. Here are Scouters asking for an update in training programs.

 

BSA trains Scouters for COPE, shooting sports, swimming sports, and more. They are embracing ATV riding and pistol shooting. Clearly there are larger structures that CAN be built with the proper assessments, what I am talking about is expanding, through training, to teach and certify Scouters in the technical issues of sound pioneering, to do quality risk assessments and mitigation.

Edited September 1, 2017 by RememberSchiff
fixed member notification

[gumbymaster]

@@HelpfulTracks

 

I screwed up my click and accidentally down voted you.

Mods, is there any way to un-downvote or change a vote?

[RememberSchiff]

@@HelpfulTracks

 

I screwed up my click and accidentally down voted you.

Mods, is there any way to un-downvote or change a vote?

 

Unfortunately no.  IMO, the buttons should be larger and further apart, say the size of the avatar. 

[ItsBrian]

@@HelpfulTracks

 

 

I screwed up my click and accidentally down voted you.

Mods, is there any way to un-downvote or change a vote?

I’ve done that like 5 times today atleast, really should be further apart.

[HelpfulTracks]

Lol, no worries guys. I don't live and die by my up or down votes. But I appreciate your concern non the less.