One of the reasons I support my Girl Scout joining the Boy Scouts

[Eagledad]

Here here.  Cub scout family burn-out will be the biggest long-term killer for the Boy Scout program.  Families burn out on scouts way way before Boy Scout ages.  IMHO, it's the biggest killer of the program and will be for decades to come as grandparents warn their kids how much work it was for them.  And the kids (now parents) don't have memories of the Boy Scout program as their family gave up before crossing over.  

I was on the District Membership Committee when National introduce the new and improved Tiger program in 2000. We had heard it was coming and we had hoped it was a scaled back program because we were already struggling with the burnout loses. Instead the new Tiger program required more adult time, not less. In fact the Tiger program alone require about 50% of the total pack adult volunteer time if done as requested. We predicted that troops would see a larger than normal decline of membership in 2005, and they did. 

 

I don't have the total cub numbers, but I believe less than 25% of Cubs from the Wolf age make it into the troops. I don't start with Tigers because the loses were huge in our area. 

 

A family program might stabilize that number some, but that one-hour-a-week will still be killer even with the whole family involved.

 

Barry

[fred johnson]

I was on the District Membership Committee when National introduce the new and improved Tiger program in 2000. We had heard it was coming and we had hoped it was a scaled back program because we were already struggling with the burnout loses. Instead the new Tiger program required more adult time, not less. In fact the Tiger program alone require about 50% of the total pack adult volunteer time if done as requested. We predicted that troops would see a larger than normal decline of membership in 2005, and they did. 

 

I don't have the total cub numbers, but I believe less than 25% of Cubs from the Wolf age make it into the troops. I don't start with Tigers because the loses were huge in our area. 

 

A family program might stabilize that number some, but that one-hour-a-week will still be killer even with the whole family involved.

 

Barry

 

Agreed.  My oldest started Tigers in September 2000.  It was okay.  Not great.  The program was an orange t-shirt and casual.  If I had to do it again, I'd have each of them join in 3rd or 4th grade.  I would not be sad if they didn't join until 5th grade.  Maybe the point they started using knives and fire on their own.  

 

I just don't think there was enough guts to the program or enough reason to participate so early.  And it just made Cub Scouts a 15 year leadership program for my wife and I.  Glad to see it's over.  Made some good friends.  Had some good events.  But the reasons I wanted my sons in scouting was not delivered until Webelos.  And, big value was delivered in Boy Scouts, not Cub Scouts.  The early years were not much more than my boys and I were already doing together.  Good friendships, but lame program.  
 
Escalating Tiger to a full rank was bad.  Creating the Lion program was ridiculous.  And the BSA pressure to include Lions was strong handed (recruit Lions or we'll send families to other units and other schools for you).  
 
I must admit that I'm tired of hearing feedback from 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year Cub Leaders about whether Lions is good or bad.  I want to hear from families that have been at it for 10 years.  And also then include a correction for the families that have quit.

 

Cub Scouts should start in 3rd grade .... maybe 2nd grade.  Definitely not younger. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by fred johnson

[Eagle94-A1]

Back when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program. I was bored out of my gourd until Webelos. Thankfully there have been major improvements, especially since Cubs can now camp. But 4.5 years, now 5.5 years with Lions is LLLLOONNNGGG

 

I did 6 years as a DL and I burned out. Part of that was the lack of help from the parents and grandparents with my 3rd TC den. But part of that is being a CS leader is extremely tiring. Trying to keep that energy up to keep them interested and active and having fun is exhausting.

 

Thankfully the kids put up with my stories as a Scout. And I took them to Boy Scout activities, specifically the Boy Scout areas of the council camporees, to see what they will be doing in a few years. That kept mine motivated.

[NJCubScouter]

I had not considered that before, the burnout factor, but I can certainly see how it can be an issue. I know I had burned out a bit after being a Popcorn Kernel for three years in a row so my first year of boy scouts I basically did nothing as a parent/volunteer. I needed the time off.

 

If you read through some of the older threads here, you will see that "burnout" (on the part of leaders, parents and kids) is a common and longstanding theme.  On the other hand, my father said a long time ago that Cub Scouts would be the end of Boy Scouts because everyone would have "had enough." (Which didn't prevent him from being a Webelos leader and Cubmaster for several years each, in addition to many more years as a Scoutmaster, ASM and troop committee member, district volunteer, etc.)  Well, both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are still here, though when my father said that, Cub Scouts was three years, not five and a half like it is becoming now.

[RememberSchiff]

though when my father said that, Cub Scouts was three years, not five and a half like it is becoming now.

 

Seemed shorter, but then it was three years with no popcorn selling. 

[Eagle1993]

You have to be careful waiting too long to get kids in the program. Select baseball and soccer begin at 7 in my area. Parents start kids in violin lessons at 5. If you have no contact with the youth until 4th or 5th grade their time will already be allocated to other camps, sports and activities. BSA faces much more competition for youth time than 20-30 years ago. I actually think getting them started at K5 makes sense, but you have to ramp slowly, lower the overhead of the program and make it fun for the scouts, parents and volunteers. Not sure this is kosher, but our committee meetings are at a restaurant/bar (not in uniform). We include all the den leaders and have a great time planning upcoming meetings, discussing the pack and other various topics. Our blue & gold is a small banquet followed by a pool party with a belly flop competition. Our campouts are a blast. Yes, we get through the adventures in our den meetings but we do our best to keep it fun. Ive seen too many pack meetings with the scouts being entertained bs being active and having fun.

 

We have actually gained scouts in most of our dens year over year. Kids have come up to me and asked if we really camp in caves or stayed overnight sleeping under multiple Lombardi trophies. When the scouts (and parents/volunteers) have fun they don't get burnt out. I think the main issues is that aspects of the program do get in the way of this. If you make Cub Scouting 2nd school you will fail.

[Eagledad]

Experts say volunteers of any volunteer organization give about 20 months before burning out. Asking a volunteer who is starting to burn out after 2 years to give one more year is not hard. I've done it many times. The problem is asking a burned out volunteer to give another two or three years (Bear Leaders).

 

The heaviest drops in cubs when I was on district during the years around 2000 were from Tigers and 2nd year Webelos. I have heard that drop outs have increased during the bear and 1st Webelos years as well. I'm not sure why those years increased. I could only attribute it to a heavier Tiger program, but I didn't track data that long for all the cub years.

 

Barry

[Eagle1993]

Ive seen too many pack meetings with the scouts being entertained bs being active and having fun.

Oops..."bs" = " instead of" Not sure how I fat fingered that one.

[RememberSchiff]

Signups for baseball, soccer, and hockey are down hereabouts.  Traveling teams, coaches who think they are coaching at the pro level, year round commitment, odd game times,...quite the logistical headache and  less fun but then their son gets the same trophy as everyone else.

 

Back when I was a DL, parents asked why should they sign their son up  for Scouts instead of Little League? I said because we are NOT Little League. In some cases, it worked. Parents were tired of working the refreshment stands, etc. and not seeing their sons play in addition to the above.

 

Oh our town dropped Little League in favor of a Cal Ripken program.

Edited August 31, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[fred johnson]

You have to be careful waiting too long to get kids in the program. Select baseball and soccer begin at 7 in my area. Parents start kids in violin lessons at 5. If you have no contact with the youth until 4th or 5th grade their time will already be allocated to other camps, sports and activities. BSA faces much more competition for youth time than 20-30 years ago.

 

What I'm seeing is the families that sign up for scouts also already sign up for baseball, soccer, etc.  So what I see happening is families get too busy and burnt out.  So they have to drop something and choose scouts.  It leaves people with a bad image of scouts and an image of scouts that is based on 1st grade activities (not boy scouts).  I'd rather let people try soccer, baseball, etc and when they learn their son won't be a pro-ball player and want to try something new, then let them try scouts.  It would be at the age of scouts beginning to be independent and using knives and fire and etc.  It gives scouts a unique proposition versus K, 1 & 2 babysitting.  

[Eagle1993]

Most of the youth here get more heavily involved in sports as they age... not less. I don't see the "my son won't be a pro decision" until high school. By that age 13-14. I don't see many scouts starting at that age.

[Eagledad]

You have to be careful waiting too long to get kids in the program. Select baseball and soccer begin at 7 in my area. Parents start kids in violin lessons at 5. If you have no contact with the youth until 4th or 5th grade their time will already be allocated to other camps, sports and activities. BSA faces much more competition for youth time than 20-30 years ago. I actually think getting them started at K5 makes sense, but you have to ramp slowly, lower the overhead of the program and make it fun for the scouts, parents and volunteers. 

I'm gunna disagree. The problem with preK to first grade (toddlers) is the large gap of maturity with the 2nd to 5th graders. The challenge adds a lot of complexity for planning and running pack level activities. 

 

I also disagree with the challenge of sports, at least until 2nd grade. We had a couple packs defy Counsel pressure by starting their entry level at the 2nd grade instead of 1st grade. They maintained the same membership number that they had five years earlier with their Tiger program. I believe there is so much pressure on 1st grade parents confronted with the multitude of entry level programs competing for 1st graders that they are relieved to hold off a year. Actually I know this to be true because they told me.

 

BUT for those adults who are concerned about competing programs, I would propose a program like the Girl Scouts have of a preK to 1st grade program that is separate from the pack. That way both programs can be designed independent of the maturity issue. And possibly help the burnout issue by not taxing the pre-k parents.

 

Barry

Edited August 31, 2017 by Eagledad

[Eagle1993]

@@Eagledad. I think this may vary by school. Our GSUSA program has huge recruiting classes and they begin at K5. So, parents are looking for the Boy counterpart at K5. I've turned parents away at K5 in the past and they rarely came back after follow ups for Tigers or Wolf. Our average Tiger den would start at 6 kids and build to 8 by Webelos 2. Our 1st year of Lions had 19 kids join. GSUSA had over 30 daisies in the same school. Parents are clearly looking for clubs and activities when they register their kids for school the first time and I don't see us getting that mindshare back after that point in time. We never had 19 kids join any den any year. We will have to monitor this over the next couple of years to see the long term impact.

 

I do agree that Lions and Tigers should and could be less intense and even separate from the pack to help prevent burnout.. the more I think about it the better it sounds. That said, the pack should still help a bit so the volunteers are not off on an island.

[Eagledad]

The loss of membership as a result of burnout is so bad that I am willing to sacrifice the Tiger program for better marketing of the Wolf age entry level scouts. I have been saying that for almost 20 years.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

Seemed shorter, but then it was three years with no popcorn selling. 

 

Good point.  And now that you mention it, I don't remember ever doing anything to raise money while in the Cub Scouts.  Of course it has been awhile, but I do remember very clearly the fundraising that I did as a Boy Scout, so I am going to conclude that there was no fundraising while I was a Cub Scout.  And the pack was chartered to a public school (this was in the 1960's) so I don't think our CO was giving the pack any money.  Go figure.  Maybe the dues were pretty high, but still...

 

Added:  This is totally off the point, but one of the most memorable (and surreal) experiences I had as a Cub Scout leader was participating in our pack's first "show and sell" of popcorn, at a supermarket.  The date was scheduled weeks in advance:  Sept. 15, 2001.  Think about it.  And our council is close enough to lower Manhattan that there had been a major, direct impact on a number of families in the area. Suddenly our little popcorn-selling table was surrounded by people raising funds from the Red Cross, Salvation Army and a half-dozen others.  And, at our council's direction, we had a fund-raising jar too, separate from the popcorn till.  Not exactly what we had planned, but necessary, and very memorable.

Edited August 31, 2017 by NJCubScouter