Girl Scouts letter to BSA

[Eagle94-A1]

When you got key Scouters in the unit who are ready to go coed, it may not matter what the Boy Scouts want. The only choice they have in voting on to accept girls or not is with their feet.

 

Regarding COs. so many are hands off, I do not think they will care.

[Eagledad]

Regarding COs. so many are hands off, I do not think they will care.

True, but the unit committee will make the choice for them. Unfortunately, that often leads to conflict.

 

Barry

[SpEdScouter]

In our area the girl scouts have added the Pinewood Derby. Which means they buy the car kits from the Boy Scout store.

 

Since most of the area GS camps have shut down they are renting out the Boy Scout camps.

 

Also at our upcoming Scouting 500 event, about 1 in 5 participants there will be girls. Either sisters or friends of Boy/cub Scouts or girls in Venture scouts. Of course then the question will come up "why dont the GS have such events?".

 

So if anything the GS needs to up their game.

[RememberSchiff]

In our area the girl scouts have added the Pinewood Derby. Which means they buy the car kits from the Boy Scout store.

 

Since most of the area GS camps have shut down they are renting out the Boy Scout camps.

 

Also at our upcoming Scouting 500 event, about 1 in 5 participants there will be girls. Either sisters or friends of Boy/cub Scouts or girls in Venture scouts. Of course then the question will come up "why dont the GS have such events?".

 

So if anything the GS needs to up their game.

 

They have; they just seek resources elsewhere.

 

Girls, properly supervised, are allowed to use power tools. I have seen them using band saws and jig saws to cut Pinewood Derby car\ outlines. Also saw a girl use a Stihl chain saw on her Gold project, Just like they could do at home or school.

 

http://www.gsema.org/content/dam/girlscouts-girlscoutseasternmass/documents/SAC/safety-activity-checkpoint.pdf

Edited August 29, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Gwaihir]

When you got key Scouters in the unit who are ready to go coed, it may not matter what the Boy Scouts want. The only choice they have in voting on to accept girls or not is with their feet.

 

Regarding COs. so many are hands off, I do not think they will care.

 

Honestly, and I'm sure I'm in the vast minority here, but those leaders should be removed from the program.  You can't blatantly ignore the Law and the Oath and then pretend to instill those virtues to the scouts.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Agreed. And I mentioned the scenario above at the council meeting. It appeared that everyone in the room agreed that will happen. At least one other attendee commented that it would probably also happen with their troop due to small numbers and lack of volunteers. Council key 3 appeared to have agreed with the assessment and moved on to the next question.

[SR540Beaver]

I always thought the "Cub Scout" program resembled the Girl Scout program.  Seriously.  Crafts.  Go-see-its.  Minor camping.

 

I was a Cub Scout in the early to mid 60's and we did crafts, go see it's and no camping. The only difference was that we wore our uniforms to school and walked to the den mother' house immediately after school.

[NJCubScouter]

I was a Cub Scout in the early to mid 60's and we did crafts, go see it's and no camping. The only difference was that we wore our uniforms to school and walked to the den mother' house immediately after school.

 

Except for the fact that I was a Cub Scout in the mid to late 60's, all of the above is true for me - in the Wolf and Bear years. (Lion was eliminated while I was in the Cub Scouts, but before I got to that point, so I went from Bear to Webelos as the kids do today.)  Webelos was much less crafts-oriented (if at all) as we were working on Tenderfoot skills (what is today the Scout rank, except you had to know a lot more knots for Tenderfoot in those days) and on activity badges (which I think had been introduced at the same time Lion was eliminated.) But even in Webelos, there was no camping then.

Edited September 4, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[DuctTape]

Our camping as a webelos was with the troops we visited in the spring. we didn't join a troop until the following fall. None of this crossover in april or earlier.

[Ranman328]

I am a little confused.  It is my understanding with all the PC stuff lately and the BSA Policy changes due to SJW Police, their hand was forced to start talking about allowing in girls.  I would think if BSA would lower the age for Venturing, more boys and girls would join and get the same type of program they are already looking for and we wouldn't be talking about letting girls in Boy Scouts or stealing Girl Scouts.

 

I can understand why the Girl Scouts of America might be upset but where were they when the BSA was being attacked from all sides?  BSA had to make some very difficult decisions based on pressure from outside organizations that had no interest in helping BSA after they got BSA to make policy changes.  They got their win, did a few fist pumps and moved on to the next crusade.  Never heard the GS come forward, defend or give support during the attacks.  Now BSA sees a potential to expand its program (I do not agree or disagree as I don't know the specifics) and the GS are upset.  Sometimes people should think about the ramifications of sitting on their hands and watching others get attacked because you don't want to be next.  Just my to cents.

[NJCubScouter]

I am a little confused.  It is my understanding with all the PC stuff lately and the BSA Policy changes due to SJW Police, their hand was forced to start talking about allowing in girls.

 

I think your understanding is incorrect.  The BSA leadership has decided that their salvation, numbers-wise, lies in expanding opportunities for girls to all age levels.  There has been "pressure" about this issue for at least 45 years, and in terms of driving the decision, I think it has amounted to virtually nothing.  National thinks this will draw in many, many more people (including more boys.)  I think the fact that many people in this forum (including me) question whether this is actually going to happen leads some (not including me, and not necessarily including you, Ranman) to conclude that a substantial increase in membership cannot be the motivation, it must be something different.  So the usual suspects of "PC" and "SWJ's" get rounded up, when what we are looking at is an internal, self-interest-motivated decision. 

 

I would think if BSA would lower the age for Venturing, more boys and girls would join and get the same type of program they are already looking for and we wouldn't be talking about letting girls in Boy Scouts or stealing Girl Scouts.

 

I think the real driving force here is letting the girls in at Cub Scout age.  If you watch Chief Scout Executive Surbaugh's presentation (which is linked in some thread around here somewhere), it is clear that that is what he is excited and enthusiastic about.  That's where the big numbers are, and if you can draw in the girls starting in Kindergarten (as the GSUSA does with Daisies), your numbers are going to look really good.  And that's what this is all about.  It is when Mr. Surbaugh moves on to the point where we have a girl in fifth grade or age 11 and she loves Cub Scouts and now it's time to move on to something else, his entire mood changes.  All of the oxygen has suddenly left the room.  What was a great opportunity has now turned into a big problem: What do we do with these young ladies after Cub Scouts?  We don't want to have nothing for them until Venturing, because most of them will probably just disappear.  I think National is really stumped about what to do at that point.  

 

As you and others have suggested, they COULD lower the Venturing age to 11, but that defeats the whole purpose of Venturing (which is as an "older youth" program), which is why I don't think it is going to happen.

 

As for "stealing Girl Scouts", if you think the GSUSA would not be upset about opening Venturing to 11-13 year old girls, I don't know what to tell you.  They'd be just as upset as they already are, about the BSA considering starting a Boy Scout-age-level program for girls.  I don't think the GSUSA cares what color uniforms the girls wear when they stop paying dues to the GSUSA and start paying them to the BSA.  But as I said before, the big numbers are in Cub Scouts:  Big numbers to gain in the hopes and dreams of BSA National, and big numbers to lose in the view of the GSUSA.

[Col. Flagg]

I am a little confused.  It is my understanding with all the PC stuff lately and the BSA Policy changes due to SJW Police, their hand was forced to start talking about allowing in girls.  I would think if BSA would lower the age for Venturing, more boys and girls would join and get the same type of program they are already looking for and we wouldn't be talking about letting girls in Boy Scouts or stealing Girl Scouts.

 

I can understand why the Girl Scouts of America might be upset but where were they when the BSA was being attacked from all sides?  BSA had to make some very difficult decisions based on pressure from outside organizations that had no interest in helping BSA after they got BSA to make policy changes.  They got their win, did a few fist pumps and moved on to the next crusade.  Never heard the GS come forward, defend or give support during the attacks.  Now BSA sees a potential to expand its program (I do not agree or disagree as I don't know the specifics) and the GS are upset.  Sometimes people should think about the ramifications of sitting on their hands and watching others get attacked because you don't want to be next.  Just my to cents.

Some will say you're incorrect. If you were incorrect then why open Boy Scouts instead is lowering the Venturing age? The REAL reason is exactly what you'd state: Pressure from outside to open Boy Scouts and make Eagle accessible to girls.

 

Saying otherwise is white-washing what BSA is trying to do.

[Ranman328]

I think your understanding is incorrect.  The BSA leadership has decided that their salvation, numbers-wise, lies in expanding opportunities for girls to all age levels.  There has been "pressure" about this issue for at least 45 years, and in terms of driving the decision, I think it has amounted to virtually nothing.  National thinks this will draw in many, many more people (including more boys.)  I think the fact that many people in this forum (including me) question whether this is actually going to happen leads some (not including me, and not necessarily including you, Ranman) to conclude that a substantial increase in membership cannot be the motivation, it must be something different.  So the usual suspects of "PC" and "SWJ's" get rounded up, when what we are looking at is an internal, self-interest-motivated decision. 

 

 

I think the real driving force here is letting the girls in at Cub Scout age.  If you watch Chief Scout Executive Surbaugh's presentation (which is linked in some thread around here somewhere), it is clear that that is what he is excited and enthusiastic about.  That's where the big numbers are, and if you can draw in the girls starting in Kindergarten (as the GSUSA does with Daisies), your numbers are going to look really good.  And that's what this is all about.  It is when Mr. Surbaugh moves on to the point where we have a girl in fifth grade or age 11 and she loves Cub Scouts and now it's time to move on to something else, his entire mood changes.  All of the oxygen has suddenly left the room.  What was a great opportunity has now turned into a big problem: What do we do with these young ladies after Cub Scouts?  We don't want to have nothing for them until Venturing, because most of them will probably just disappear.  I think National is really stumped about what to do at that point.  

 

As you and others have suggested, they COULD lower the Venturing age to 11, but that defeats the whole purpose of Venturing (which is as an "older youth" program), which is why I don't think it is going to happen.

 

As for "stealing Girl Scouts", if you think the GSUSA would not be upset about opening Venturing to 11-13 year old girls, I don't know what to tell you.  They'd be just as upset as they already are, about the BSA considering starting a Boy Scout-age-level program for girls.  I don't think the GSUSA cares what color uniforms the girls wear when they stop paying dues to the GSUSA and start paying them to the BSA.  But as I said before, the big numbers are in Cub Scouts:  Big numbers to gain in the hopes and dreams of BSA National, and big numbers to lose in the view of the GSUSA.

NJCUBSCOUTER your comment about lowering the Venturing age just makes my point.  So its OK to defeat the whole purpose of "BOY SCOUTING" but not OK to defeat the purpose of "Venturing".  Just create a new program for coeds and leave the Boy Scout Program alone.  This entire discussion is utterly silly.  It appears that anything that has Boy, Dad, Man in it needs to be abolished.  I just read today that a group is out there trying to get rid of "Fathers Day" and change it to "Special Persons Day".  Really, when does it stop.  Give boys the ability to be boys.  They need to be outside, camping, fishing, playing getting skinned knees and strawberries from sliding in baseball, poison ivy, falling in creeks and getting wet.  We are teaching out youth to be idle and wasting these great resources that god has provided us.  We now sit behind computers and wasting time arguing about stupid stuff that doesn't really matter in the end.  If BSA or whoever else wants to make silly decisions and waste time pushing away its "Customers" so be it.  They are wasting a great opportunity and at some point the entire program will fold due to politics.  This would be a shame.

[AltadenaCraig]

Just create a new program for coeds and leave the Boy Scout Program alone.  This entire discussion is utterly silly.

 

Utterly silly; so stipulated.  Now that we're agreed, will the "new program for coeds" you advocate award "Eagle Scout" to girls?

 

If not, then this entire discussion isn't so silly.

[NJCubScouter]

Now that we're agreed, will the "new program for coeds" you advocate award "Eagle Scout" to girls?

 

Actually Ranman's idea of a "new program for coeds" is not so far from what the BSA is actually considering, according to the video presentation from the Chief Scout Executive that is linked in some thread in this forum.  For Cub Scouts there would a local option for coed packs (but not coed dens), but at the Boy Scout level there would be a new, separate program - not coed, but for girls only.  At last report they were still considering exactly what this program would look like, including the issue of Eagle.  My opinion is that if this is what they are going to do, the new program for girls should be a mirror image of Boy Scouts, including Eagle.