Just got word....

[HelpfulTracks]

The slippery slope is using advancement to drive the the program instead of outdoor activities for adventure.  

 

 

With all due respect, you read that into my post. I never said advancement should drive the program. But no one method should. All 8 methods are on equal footing. As adults we need to make sure that all 8 methods are being given due weight.

 

In fact I am surprised that I need to expound on this at all. In my scouting experience, teaching, learning, advancement, character building, leadership skills and more are integrated into an outdoor program. Sometimes it is high adventure, sometimes its just good old camping or a day hike, or games/competitions or some other activities the scouts have chosen to do. Sometimes the scouts even choose to make a meeting about learning. In fact, last years annual planning our PLC voted to make the month of June about completing merit badges that they started at Summer camp earlier in the month.

 

The concept of focus in my view comes from guiding the older scouts towards teaching, rather than letting adults jump in and do it. Most older scouts are more than happy to teach (but not all), most just don't think about it. But given a little encouragement/reminder they jump in so they can show their prowess and skills. They love it and the feedback and praise they get from the younger scouts (and from adults too).

[HelpfulTracks]

"I cannot agree that teaching is a slippery slope. Older scouts using the EDGE method to show a younger scouts how to pitch a tent, build a fire, use a map and compass, build a pioneer gateway etc., is in my opinion, exactly what scouting is about. In fact it is part of the requirements for rank advancement to teach.

If a scout sees a another scout struggling to set up tent improperly he should step in and offer assistance.

 

'Let me explain to you about setting up your tent.

Now I'll show you

Now you try it.

Good, you have it, now pass it along.."

 

After 52 years working with youth in Scouting (and many years in youth sports coaching), I would respectfully suggest that consciousness on the part of the supposed learner of a need to learn is a precondition to successful teaching.  

 

 

I think that goes without saying. Some scouts do not readily accept unsolicited help for various reasons. Others do, because they are eager to learn from the ones they look up to, usually the older scouts. Those they don't want to be taught may change their mind when they wake up in the middle of night with a soaked sleeping bag because they didn't properly set their fly. Or the next day when they SPL is singing the praises of another patrol for how well their camp is set. Or when other scouts choose not to tent with them because they don't want to be in a tent that collapses on them in the middle of the night.

 

Regardless, I encourage my scouts to impart the things they had learned to the younger ones. Both the giving and receiving of teaching is greeting with varying degrees of excitement. In the end it is up to the scouts, I am there to guide not force.

[Stosh]

If I read this correctly, the "slippery slope" of education/advancement emphasis is valid.  This is why I shy away from mixed patrols.  My NSP can be compared to the Basic Training emphasis of getting activities oriented to instill appropriate skills in the new guys.  The military and business have been using this model effectively for years.  Once they are done with that, they can then take those skills and further develop them in activities that don't require intense training anymore.  They take on challenges, solve problems, and aren't focused on "having to do advancement" and can relax and enjoy what they have already learned.  Sure, some of the boys will become Instructors and go back to help the new boys, but they do so on their terms.  This is the unique part of the POR system of Star, Life and Eagle.  I, personally, would not like the process of always having new guys who I have to teach for the full career in Boy Scouts.  By the time I get to the "fumes" age, I want to branch out into some real adventure and if I so choose, go back as an Instructor and help out the new boys on occasion, but not all the time.

[Rick_in_CA]

I am curious as to why you think that will be the case? I don't get why it follows that bringing in new adults will create the environment you describe?

You have to understand the truly amazing levels of paranoia in parts of our society. Basically, many people assume that all men are potential threats to children unless proven otherwise. And it's worse with female children.

 

Any man that chooses to work with children is suspect (especially if they don't have children of their own). Boy Scouts is one of the few places where that is still acceptable. Though I have heard stories of parents complaining about scouters that don't have children of their own, and in one case of a unmarried scouter being asked to leave a cub scout pack because of parental fears (he ended up as an assistant scoutmaster in a troop). Outside of the BSA, we have day care facilities that find because of parental fears they can't employ any men. On the rare occasions when men are allowed to volunteer at GSUSA camps, they must wear bright red arm bands showing that they are "permitted", but must also be escorted by an adult female leader whenever they are near any of the scouts (a coworker's experience). The list of examples is much to long to list here.

 

If you add girls to the mix, the level of paranoia will increase. And the worry is that the rules to compensate for the fear will make it that much harder for any adventure to take place.

[Back Pack]

The point above is true. I am a recent Eagle and a college student. I get weird looks from parents when I try to volunteer and help or be involved with scouts. Thank God there's Venturing. The whole situation makes me feel like I've done something wrong when all I want to do is help. I don't feel welcome anymore and that's depressing.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Back Pack

[Eagledad]

With all due respect, you read that into my post. I never said advancement should drive the program. But no one method should. All 8 methods are on equal footing. As adults we need to make sure that all 8 methods are being given due weight.

 

In fact I am surprised that I need to expound on this at all. In my scouting experience, teaching, learning, advancement, character building, leadership skills and more are integrated into an outdoor program. Sometimes it is high adventure, sometimes its just good old camping or a day hike, or games/competitions or some other activities the scouts have chosen to do. Sometimes the scouts even choose to make a meeting about learning. In fact, last years annual planning our PLC voted to make the month of June about completing merit badges that they started at Summer camp earlier in the month.

 

The concept of focus in my view comes from guiding the older scouts towards teaching, rather than letting adults jump in and do it. Most older scouts are more than happy to teach (but not all), most just don't think about it. But given a little encouragement/reminder they jump in so they can show their prowess and skills. They love it and the feedback and praise they get from the younger scouts (and from adults too).

 

With all due respect, you read that into my post. I never said advancement should drive the program. But no one method should. All 8 methods are on equal footing. As adults we need to make sure that all 8 methods are being given due weight.

 

 

I read nothing into your post. You focused on training and then asked me about the slippery slope. You are making this discussion to personal to your more specific interest of applying one of the eight methods. I was speaking more about using a specific method to drive the program. My point, once again, is use adventure to drive the program. Not advancement.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

If I read this correctly, the "slippery slope" of education/advancement emphasis is valid.  This is why I shy away from mixed patrols.  My NSP can be compared to the Basic Training emphasis of getting activities oriented to instill appropriate skills in the new guys. 

Oh for Pete's sakes Stosh, whether the focus of program is adventure or advancement has nothing to do with patrol styles. That would be like saying you use patrol method because your favorite color is red. Makes no sense.

 

If you want ANOTHER debate on patrol styles, please start another discussion.

 

Barry

Edited September 26, 2017 by RememberSchiff
remove personal insult

[RememberSchiff]

Let's refrain from personal insults.

[Eagledad]

Let's refrain from personal insults.

Please, explain the insult part. At best, it's a disagreement and there is nothing personal in the response. I'm confident stosh will start a new discussion of how patrol styles influence adventure and advancement.

 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

The point above is true. I am a recent Eagle and a college student. I get weird looks from parents when I try to volunteer and help or be involved with scouts. Thank God there's Venturing. The whole situation makes me feel like I've done something wrong when all I want to do is help. I don't feel welcome anymore and that's depressing.

 

As an outsider, you need to gain trust.  I have been an outsider with the troop because my son went to a different school.  You are right, it is frustrating given your expertise, experience, and enthusiasm.  For me, small steps - help a little here and there was effective.

 

Hang in there,  you have much to offer.

 

Beware once you are accepted you may be experience volunteer overload. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by RememberSchiff
improve explanation

[RememberSchiff]

Please, explain the insult part. At best, it's a disagreement and there is nothing personal in the response. I'm confident stosh will start a new discussion of how patrol styles influence adventure and advancement.

 

Barry

 

I did NOT like the derogatory reference to his wife, which I edited out. 

[Cambridgeskip]

The point above is true. I am a recent Eagle and a college student. I get weird looks from parents when I try to volunteer and help or be involved with scouts. Thank God there's Venturing. The whole situation makes me feel like I've done something wrong when all I want to do is help. I don't feel welcome anymore and that's depressing.

 

That is such a shame. We get a little bit of that here but not very much. Certainly I've never encountered it and I started helping with cubs when I was 16, 23 years later I'm still around! Certainly as an organisation TSA actively encourages younger adults to get involved. It provides a breath of fresh air and enthusiasm and new ideas compared to the likes of me. Any parent giving me or any of my team a hard time for being a non parent leader would be invited to either put up and shut up or find a different youth organisation for their child to join. I simply wouldn't put up with it. Then I do have the advantage of working for our equivalent of the IRS so I have plenty of experience of being quite robust in my approach to some things

[RememberSchiff]

If I read this correctly, the "slippery slope" of education/advancement emphasis is valid.  This is why I shy away from mixed patrols.  My NSP can be compared to the Basic Training emphasis of getting activities oriented to instill appropriate skills in the new guys.  The military and business have been using this model effectively for years.  Once they are done with that, they can then take those skills and further develop them in activities that don't require intense training anymore.  They take on challenges, solve problems, and aren't focused on "having to do advancement" and can relax and enjoy what they have already learned.  Sure, some of the boys will become Instructors and go back to help the new boys, but they do so on their terms.  This is the unique part of the POR system of Star, Life and Eagle.  I, personally, would not like the process of always having new guys who I have to teach for the full career in Boy Scouts.  By the time I get to the "fumes" age, I want to branch out into some real adventure and if I so choose, go back as an Instructor and help out the new boys on occasion, but not all the time.

 

I see your point.

 

Back in the day (here he goes),  a new patrol with an experienced PL planned their hikes (outdoor adventures) and then later campouts. Skills like stalking (sorely missed) were practiced and sometimes advancement occurred on these adventure.  Today it appears reversed, outdoor activities are advancement-driven and not adventure-driven.

 

My $0.02

Edited September 26, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[Eagledad]

I did NOT like the derogatory reference to his wife, which I edited out. 

I should not be blamed for your lack of sense of humor.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

While I long ago gave up on the idea that anything can be done about threads that go off-topic, I think the off-topic nature of most of the discussion here has caused problems.  This thread started out being about girls in the BSA.  It seems to me that Cambridgeskip and Rick-in-CA are still discussing issues related to the actual topic.  Almost everyone else is not.  Maybe a new thread should be started, and probably not in I&P, if people want to discuss the well-worn subjects of how kids learn skills, patrol structure, the effect of advancement on learning and adventure, and whatever else people are discussing here.  And that's part of the problem; other than the discussion of girls in Scouting, this thread has become about so many different things (some related) that, at this point, it isn't really about anything.