Survey on girls just received

[NJCubScouter]

The full survey had 35 questions. If you didn't get all of them it's because you answered a few questions that directed you to a different outcome.

I am not doubting you, but how do you know the full survey had 35 questions?

 

I didn't count the number of questions but I am pretty sure it wasn't anywhere near 35.

[Stosh]

Surveys that add questions or drop questions depending on one's answers is common.  The number of questions asked is irrelevant.  If one were to answer all "NO" to every question, the questions asking for further detail on "YES" answers only seek further detail on issues that would be of no concern to one who answered "NO".

 

I'm thinking the # of questions is really a moot point.

[Back Pack]

I am not doubting you, but how do you know the full survey had 35 questions?

I didn't count the number of questions but I am pretty sure it wasn't anywhere near 35.

Exactly.

 

Some are gifted with the ability to do things with computers most people can't. The survey's code is pretty easy to open and follow. It's contained in the source code of the web page linked to the SQL back end.

[NJCubScouter]

Exactly.

Some are gifted with the ability to do things with computers most people can't.

Yes, some are. Alas, I am mostly in the "can't" category. My son isn't, but as I said before, the survey's computer may check to see if you are currently registered in the BSA before sending the link to the survey. He is an "alumnus" and an Eagle but is not registered currently.

[Zuse]

For anyone taking the survey without having watched the video AND participated in a council-level discussion, please keep in mind that you are missing a LOT of the context.

 

In our council, they specifically said that the survey and video was not to be shared with people who did not attend since watching the video was crucial to see the options explained and then have the discussion with other interested parties.

 

It's not that I desire anyone's voice to not be heard, but without the video, you don't have enough of the facts to be able to answer the survey as well as you could, which doesn't help National as they review the results.

[Stosh]

For anyone taking the survey without having watched the video AND participated in a council-level discussion, please keep in mind that you are missing a LOT of the context.

 

In our council, they specifically said that the survey and video was not to be shared with people who did not attend since watching the video was crucial to see the options explained and then have the discussion with other interested parties.

 

It's not that I desire anyone's voice to not be heard, but without the video, you don't have enough of the facts to be able to answer the survey as well as you could, which doesn't help National as they review the results.

 

If they have the survey on line, why isn't the video on line?  It should be self explanatory.

 

I've been working with co-ed youth programs for 45+ years now.  What is it they are going to explain that anyone with children don't already know?

[Zuse]

If they have the survey on line, why isn't the video on line?  It should be self explanatory.

 

I've been working with co-ed youth programs for 45+ years now.  What is it they are going to explain that anyone with children don't already know?

 

The reasoning given by our council executive and the trainer presenting the video and facilitating the discussion is because they very much wanted people to be exposed to the different viewpoints about the presentation before filling out the survey.

 

Although I do agree about making the video available--I actually asked during the meeting why they couldn't make it available to watch/show others later--I also see where they're coming from. It's that exposure to others and having a respectful discussion that helps people to think critically and not resort to a lot of knee-jerk reactions from the video alone. Just because someone has youth in scouting doesn't mean they understand the program fully or have the perspective of volunteers who are looking at it from a more strategic, national point of view in terms of how it would affect the program structure or the way it is executed.

 

I can tell you that a lot of parents who came to our meeting last week had their viewpoints changed because there were adult scouters who gave them an insight that they could not have possibly come up with on their own from watching the video. There was a lot of "oh, I never thought of it that way".

 

Without that kind of discussion, there's less of an opportunity to build unity and keep the program working for as many youth, families and adult volunteers as possible. With such a hot-button issue, that is more critical than ever.

[Stosh]

Well, as I posted earlier, it's not always a knee-jerk for the people running the program.  They can all say, been there, done that. 

 

I have watched the BSA slide down it's slippery slope for going on 45+ years now and for the most part this is not something new. 

[Back Pack]

For anyone taking the survey without having watched the video AND participated in a council-level discussion, please keep in mind that you are missing a LOT of the context.

 

In our council, they specifically said that the survey and video was not to be shared with people who did not attend since watching the video was crucial to see the options explained and then have the discussion with other interested parties.

 

It's not that I desire anyone's voice to not be heard, but without the video, you don't have enough of the facts to be able to answer the survey as well as you could, which doesn't help National as they review the results.

Funny. Because this survey I took is different than the one one that came with a video from the CA-based councils. In fact there was no video linked or mentioned. Also the questions were VERY different and quite specific, offering more options. I have seen so far four different surveys all with different questions and very differently worded. So why would BSA do that? The one reason that sticks out is to engineer an answer they want.

[Eagle94-A1]

The reasoning given by our council executive and the trainer presenting the video and facilitating the discussion is because they very much wanted people to be exposed to the different viewpoints about the presentation before filling out the survey.

 

Although I do agree about making the video available--I actually asked during the meeting why they couldn't make it available to watch/show others later--I also see where they're coming from. It's that exposure to others and having a respectful discussion that helps people to think critically and not resort to a lot of knee-jerk reactions from the video alone. Just because someone has youth in scouting doesn't mean they understand the program fully or have the perspective of volunteers who are looking at it from a more strategic, national point of view in terms of how it would affect the program structure or the way it is executed.

 

I can tell you that a lot of parents who came to our meeting last week had their viewpoints changed because there were adult scouters who gave them an insight that they could not have possibly come up with on their own from watching the video. There was a lot of "oh, I never thought of it that way".

 

Without that kind of discussion, there's less of an opportunity to build unity and keep the program working for as many youth, families and adult volunteers as possible. With such a hot-button issue, that is more critical than ever.

 

The challenge is that not every council is informing folks about their meetings. My council put a fast blurb on one district's facebook page. It's not on the district calendar, no emails were sent out. Just a fast blurb on one district's facebook page. And then is was posted in the middle of a punch of other posts.  Further they selected a night and location that will make it difficult for many folks to show up. My council selected a Thursday night, a night in the middle of the week for this meeting. And they gave us 7 days notice for the meeting. Also  I will be driving 3 hours round trip to attend a 1 hour long meeting. And my district is relatively close. There are some districts that will have another hour plus drive one way.

 

So I am glad that folks are posting the video online. I am glad that folks are posting the intro and discussion  questions online. A lot of people are concerned. Alot of people are interested in this. And my council at least is not doing a very good job communicating or showing that they are truly interested in our opinion.

[Stosh]

My council is totally silent on the whole issue.  No letters, no emails, no conversations at all.  As a matter of fact, our District Roundtable is going to meet next week, the agenda came out and not one word on this issue.  Our Roundtable Commissioner travels all over the country keeping in the loop on everything.  Not one word, nada.  The only reason I know about it is publications and the internet.

 

Maybe the pushback from this is more focused on just a bunch of little splashes instead of a Tsunami they would have if they did this all over the country at the same time.divide and conquer,   Maybe they don't want certain areas of the country to take the survey and askew the results.  That's another trick to get a survey to say what outcome you are going for.  100% of the people surveyed are in favor of letting girls into Boy Scouts... really, both of them.  And why does letting girls into Boy Scouts sound kinda dumb in the first place?  Oh, yeah, it's FAMILY Scouting, that sounds better.

 

And an after thought..... the trainers that come along with the video?  How many of them are going to show the sunny side of the street in their preso just before the people take the survey? 

 

From my experience in college with a business major and psychology minor, this whole process has the ear-marks of a forgone conclusion grasping at validation by targeting favorable audiences.

[Col. Flagg]

My council is totally silent on the whole issue.  No letters, no emails, no conversations at all.  As a matter of fact, our District Roundtable is going to meet next week, the agenda came out and not one word on this issue.  Our Roundtable Commissioner travels all over the country keeping in the loop on everything.  Not one word, nada.  The only reason I know about it is publications and the internet.

 

My council *was* silent on this until last Friday. Some folks got an email with links, others didn't. Some were Key 3, some were parents, some were current members, some were registered last year but did not re-charter. There were 30+ questions to the survey I had. Many were quite detailed and discussed both coed options and single sex unit options in Cubs Scouts, Boy Scouts and OA. The so-called "location option" was not discussed or highlighted.

 

Regarding RT, we too have RT this week and there is zero discussion on this issue. Someone brought it up on the online message board we have and they were told, rather poignantly, not to discuss this issue "in the open". Well, you can imagine how THAT went over, so loads more people wanted to know why a) we can't discuss the topic, and b) why they didn't get a survey that clearly went out to some members and not others.

 

This type of clandestine bull-pucky just feeds the fire around BSA trying to orchestrate an outcome. No announcement. No planning. No debate. No openness. This smacks of a back room deal.

 

I completed my survey and was VERY vocal about my feelings. If that means that BSA black lists me or otherwise, I really don't care. They've lost all credibility with me and many in my area at this point.

[Zuse]

And an after thought..... the trainers that come along with the video?  How many of them are going to show the sunny side of the street in their preso just before the people take the survey? 

 

From my experience in college with a business major and psychology minor, this whole process has the ear-marks of a forgone conclusion grasping at validation by targeting favorable audiences.

 

Nailed it. The variety in the questions in different parts of the country tells you that they're fishing for answers. I already had questions during the presentation about the survey methods, questions asked, options that people could choose from as their answer, etc. This just makes the preliminary "market research" that Mr. Surbaugh mentioned even more suspect and erodes his (and national's) credibility.

 

 

I mentioned it during our meeting last week and I'll say it again: I feel like the fact that our CSE was doing a sales pitch (his words at the end of the video) tells me that BSA has already decided to go down this path. Very little of the negatives were touched on or acknowledged during the presentation, which has the effect of automatically painting who vocalize opposition to the changes after the video as being obstructionist, out of touch or discriminating against girls. There are good reasons for why BSA should not make this change, and until they recognize and validate those points of view (which is not the same as agreeing), they will lose all those people and their families.

 

The option to partner with an outside organization? C'mon, Mr. Surbaugh- that's a false choice. Everyone knows that the most well-known organization to partner with is GSUSA, but they don't want to be absorbed or be beholden to any outside organization in giving up the power to choose how their own program is run. The top award in GSUSA is not comparable to Eagle, it doesn't have the prestige and recognition that the Eagle does for boys.

 

The whole pitch he gave was centered around how convenient it would be for families to not have two separate programs, and yet partnering with just such an organization (which doesn't solve the convenience problem) is presented as if it was a viable option. It's not, and it reeked of the BSA trying to make it sound like they were extending an olive branch to other groups even though they already knew the response people would have to that proposal. It was dishonest and misleading, unbecoming of the CSE who is supposed to exemplify all the values of scouting--especially being trustworthy.

 

 

Because the problem lies in not continuing to hemorrhage sponsors and members (which don't want to contribute to an organization that is seen as discriminatory towards girls because they're not "inclusive"), BSA will look at the financial situation. From that perspective, the changes make tons of sense. In terms of what is best for the youth that the program serves, it is not so clear cut.

[EmberMike]

...If they follow the same path they have with other surveys, they will ignore what the majority wants.

 

Anyone have any data on past survey outcomes that contradicted the eventual path the BSA took on membership policy issues? I keep reading about this "ignore what the majority wants" idea but I've personally not seen the data to support this. Just wondering if the data is out there to view somewhere. 

[Back Pack]

Anyone have any data on past survey outcomes that contradicted the eventual path the BSA took on membership policy issues? I keep reading about this "ignore what the majority wants" idea but I've personally not seen the data to support this. Just wondering if the data is out there to view somewhere.

 

The results published by national prior to the 2013 and 2015 policy changes are two sources. Should be able to find them using google. They've been posted in this forum in the recent past.