BSA policies regarding withholding advancement

[tharrell12976]

Hi, I hope I have this in the right forum - I'm new to the site.

 

My son (a 1st Class Scout) recently got into an altercation with our Scoutmaster.  Without going into too much detail, my son, who has never had a single disciplinary problem previously, didn't do what he was told - He didn't feel good, so he laid on a table vice going somewhere the Scoutmaster told him to.  Because of his "defiance", the Scoutmaster picked him up and threw him over his shoulder and carried him to where he was told to go.  My son fought back, hitting the Scoutmaster.  I do not condone my son's behavior, but this Scoutmaster has been mean and demeaning to many of the Scouts in the Troop - Lots of issues here.

 

As a result of this incident, but son has essentially on "probation" and is not allowed to advance in rank for 1 year.  He is ready for his Star Rank Board of Review, with the exception that his service hours completed (delivering items to homeless and needy people through our Church) are not being "counted" by the Scoutmaster.  Our Scoutmaster only approves very limited things for service hours, usually only Eagle Projects.

 

I've heard from some that it is specifically against BSA policy to prevent my son from advancing for something like this.  Can anyone point me to this policy?  I'm building a case against the Troop Committee, who I believe has acted wrongly, and I need some help on the policy.

 

Thank you!

 

[Back Pack]

I'd be more concerned about a Scoutmaster making physical contact with my kid. That's a way bigger problem than your son advancing. There's no way that behavior is appropriate by any adult let alone the Scoutmaster. I'd talk to your council about that.

 

The Guide to Advancement is online and contains all the rules the troop must follow. I'd look there to build your case. I'd also find another troop but make sure your get your records from this one first.

[tharrell12976]

Thank you - Yes, we are looking for another troop.  And I completely agree - the physical contact is a huge problem.  I understand having to make decisions - If a kid is in danger or something like that, or if my son was threatening to hurt someone else (he wasn't), I totally support doing what is needed to resolve the situation.

 

We've got the council involved.  However, the Scoutmaster is also a respected Doctor (a surgeon) in the fairly small town the Troop is in.  The Council has deferred to the Troop Committee, and the Committee won't do anything to "Dr. XXXXXX".

 

The physical contact occurred at a Council summer camp - The camp staff had to eventually pull the Scoutmaster away from my son because he (the Scoutmaster) kept getting in my son's face, yelling at him, etc.... Basically antagonizing him.

 

There are other kids in the Troop that have similar issues.  For example, one other boy refuses to go on any campouts if the Scoutmaster is attending.  (This Troop has lots of adult volunteer help, and often, the Assistant Scoutmasters lead the campouts.)  I could list many, many examples of similar problems.

 

Since the Council has essentially refused to do anything, I am working to build my case to present to whoever will listen (Troop Committee, District, Council) - I will present it as we leave the Troop.  Something needs to be done.

 

Thanks for listening - I'm working to find the policies online, etc., so I can make reference to factual BSA policies.

[EmberMike]

You can build whatever case you want, but if this Scoutmaster remains in the troop, your son is only going to have a harder time going forward. This SM sounds like someone likely to hold a grudge. If things get bad enough, he might do everything he can to slow or prevent advancement even further, possibly even making it much harder for your son to pursue his Eagle Scout rank. 

 

Is the Scoutmaster liked by others in the troop? You might have a strong case against him, especially for the physical contact incident. If your goal is to see him removed from his position, that's possible. But consider how life in the troop might be for your son if the SM was liked by others. You might trade one unpleasant situation for another. 

 

I agree with Back Pack, look into finding another troop and making sure you bring your son's records with you. If your son has aspirations of reaching Eagle, and both he and the SM remain in this troop, I think his odds of reaching Eagle are greatly diminished. Moving to another troop might be the only option. 

 

Edit: I posted my reply before reading your follow-up. Sounds like this Scoutmaster is causing problems with other scouts as well. Camp staff had to hold him back from your son, other kids won't go camping with the SM, etc. Sounds like he's unfit for the position. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by EmberMike

[tharrell12976]

Thank you - Yes, I definitely agree that things in the current Troop would probably not be good.  My assessment is that the Scoutmaster is liked by some, disliked by others.  And I agree that things could get worse.  We are working on finding another Troop.  My oldest son is also in the Troop (almost done with his Eagle), and he is also refusing to stay in the Troop if the current Scoutmaster remains.  He is ready to quit Scouting because of it.... Very sad, because he is extremely active, and he is great with the younger Scouts (many other parents have confirmed this).

 

It is difficult - There aren't many Troops in town, and the current Troop is by far the most active.  There are also a LOT of GOOD people involved with the Troop.  It is just extremely frustrating that one man can ruin things for a lot of people like this.

 

Thanks again!

[SSF]

I'm so sorry to hear about this situation. The SM's conduct in this case was truly shameful and, based on what you shared, it appears that he clearly lost his temper and acted out of rage and it also sounds as though this kind of behavior on his part has been an ongoing problem.  

 

In any group of kids, for any kind of activity or group, there will always be rebellious, defiant kids, but the adult who work with them (teachers, coaches, scout leaders, etc,) have to maintain their cool and have to remain the adult in the situation. There's no place in scouting for scout leaders who can't control themselves.

 

Two things stand out to me from your post, First, that the SM did physically pick-up your son, in an aggressive and intimidating manner, which also must have been quite humiliating for your son. Even just grabbing him would have been inexcusable but the SM went as far as to actually pick up your son and carry him over his shoulder as though he were taking him captive. Second, that the scoutmaster was enraged to the point that camp staff had to pull him away from your son; no doubt concerned that he may lose control even further and might potentially strike your son.

 

To me, this seems to be a clear Youth Protection issue and based on that, council should investigate this heavily. You should definitely also report this incident to the Charter Organization.

 

Based on what you shared, this SM should, IMHO, be removed from scouting by the local council. The alternative approach is to engage the other parents who also have issues with his behavior and seek to have him removed through the troop committee or charter organization. That may hinge heavily on whether or not a number of parents would be willing to actively speak up against him.

 

The fact that your older son is working towards his Eagle, makes this situation all the more sad and unfortunate. I'm truly sorry that your family is going through this.

 

Finally, it's incredibly unjust to me, that it so many cases like this, in which adult scouters act inappropriately, that it is the scout and his family who ultimately end up being punished by having to find a new unit, rather than the other way around.

[qwazse]

It is possible to be a good surgeon and lousy SM. Actually, with the few surgeons I know, the odds of being a good SM are stacked against them.

 

Advancement is the least of your worries. Although I think both of your boys could request a board of review under disputed circumstances. Regardless, that's their problem to solve. You can stay out of it.

 

The aggressive behavior of the SM, and the lack of leaders to call him on it means that the troop is not functioning as it should. The charter organization should be informed as well.

[Eagle94-A1]

As others have stated, the physical contact and yelling concern me. That is grounds for council level involvement if memory serves. 

[allangr1024]

Excuse me, but this kind of physical contact between the SM and the scout borders on a criminal assault, and could even be actionable in a civil court.  I have heard of teachers and coaches being fired for this kind of thing.

 

In my council they tell us to call the police or sheriff, as well as the council executive.  I think you should file a charge of assault with the police, and a formal complaint of a youth protection violation against this guy.  If he has done something like this with this particular scout, then I bet he has done it to others as well.  I might even call National and use the words "case"  and "lawyer".  I bet then the local council will respond.

 

How can this troop offer a quality program of scouting with a leader like this at the helm.  

[gumbymaster]

Keep in mind, as with all these types of disputes, we are only getting one side of the story.

 

Now, given that, the ONLY reason to man-handle a youth in any way is for the immediate health and safety of that youth or others.  Willful disobeying a directive (with good reason or not) is not such a reason.  That said, the alternative option available to the SM would have been to call you to pick up your son from camp because he will not follow adult leader directions.

 

As described, this is at least a Physical Assault (the pickup and carry - harm, if any, is irrelevant to the charge) and likely verbal abuse (with other scout/staff witnesses), and potentially bullying behavior.  As per the YPT, such behavior should be reported to and discussed with the Council's Scout Executive directly.  I am less sure on involving law enforcement ... with no harm, they are unlikely to prosecute, but it may be something that you at least want an official report taken, that will also force the council to address it.

 

Escalating this situation has much more consequence to the SM.  If he is a doctor, an assault charge on his record (if law enforcement is involved) could endanger his medical license.

 

As you have already discovered, it is very difficult to report and get traction on the wrongdoings of prominent or well liked people.

 

Now having finished with hardball options...

 

Have you had a frank discussion with the SM? Why did he feel the need to act in this way, in retrospect does he really feel that your son's actions rose to a magnitude where this was necessary? 

 

Further discuss with him, that the Guide to Advancement (GTA) provides NO option for him to categorically delay your son's advancement.  He can dismiss your son from the troop outright however.  He can also use the SM conference and the "show scout spirit" requirement as a means to interfere with advancement, but as others have said, the GTA provides a mechanism for disputed circumstances (it is not unusual for an SM and scout to have a standing conflict).  A good SM might recognize their own bias and assign an ASM to conduct the conference.

 

Now, days or weeks later, and with cooler heads, maybe the SM and your son can work out the differences, maybe not.

 

Small towns don't usually have many options for other Troops, but it sounds like you are looking into that.  If there are enough unhappy parents, are they willing to step up, join the committee and oust the guy? - is there a willing replacement?  Another option may be to start a new troop with the other disaffected scouts and parents.

 

Best of luck, and please keep us updated on how it all eventually works out.  (We need the closure to the story).

Edited August 3, 2017 by gumbymaster

[Back Pack]

Thanks for listening - I'm working to find the policies online, etc., so I can make reference to factual BSA policies.

Here's the GTA in PDF form. You can find all support you need here to support your arguments.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting outlines how real adult leaders should act.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

 

Lastly this PDF about youth protection issues. This SM has no business in scouting. Such behavior is inexcusable.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/100-015(15)_WEB.pdf

[EmberMike]

We've got the council involved.  However, the Scoutmaster is also a respected Doctor (a surgeon) in the fairly small town the Troop is in.  The Council has deferred to the Troop Committee, and the Committee won't do anything to "Dr. XXXXXX".

 

I'd go back to to the council, and bring it up as a Youth Protection issue. As others have stated, this seems like a YP issue that definitely needs council involvement. 

 

Go up the chain if council still wants to defer to the committee to sort this out. As mentioned by allangr1024, calling National might be a way to get the council to act. 

 

This seems like a bigger issue than something that should be left to the committee, who in this case sound like they're not going to do anything about it. Go higher, and keep going until you get someone to take a real look at this. 

[Eagledad]

It is possible to be a good surgeon and lousy SM. Actually, with the few surgeons I know, the odds of being a good SM are stacked against them.

 

Advancement is the least of your worries. Although I think both of your boys could request a board of review under disputed circumstances. Regardless, that's their problem to solve. You can stay out of it.

 

The aggressive behavior of the SM, and the lack of leaders to call him on it means that the troop is not functioning as it should. The charter organization should be informed as well.

Adult bystanders don't like confrontation, so they tend to stand back quietly and let these things go by without accountability. As long as the SM (any adult) gets away with aggressive behavior toward adults or scouts, but especially aggressive physical behavior, the behavior will continue. I've seen it several times. I have been personally involved with removing adults away from scouts.

 

After my few experiences with aggressive adults (both male and female), I believe you must contact council via the Scout Executive and District Executive and District Commissioner as well. I would start by calling and telling Committee Chair you are contacting the SE and they can either assist in you are stand back. After my experiences, I believe aggressive adults have to be removed from a position that puts them in harms way with scouts. If they can't control themselves, certainly nobody else can.

 

The problem with scouting is most of us can control ourselves when we are fresh and in low stress environments. But working with youth outdoors naturally creates a stressful environment, especially difficult boys who are also tired from lack of sleep and activities. Add lack of sleep and fatigue of outdoor activities pushes some adults over the edge. They typically only loose control for a second, but someone can get hurt in that brief outburst.

 

I think you are in a tough spot, but protecting the youth is most important.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

One other thing, in most cases (not all), the adults knew they should step down and did it voluntarily. Likely this isn't the first time they lost control. You are doing them a favor. 

 

Barry

[fred johnson]

With the assumption that we are only seeing one side.  But trusting it is as you said ....

• SMs never should be yelling in the face of scouts.  It serves no purpose and defeats many other purposes.
• SMs should never physically pick up a scout and carry them unless there is a safety issue involved.
• Probalby won't help pursuing as criminal matter.

My comments are

 

#1 At some point, move on.  You can only pursue getting this corrected so much.  I'm betting multiple people have seen and know the issue.  Others have other view points.  The risk of continued pursuit is you will hurt the scouting future for yourself or your sons.  Not to mention all the emotional energy involved.  At some point, you need to move on.  I'm not sure you are at that point yet.  But decide where that point is.  ... Maybe moving on is finding another troop.  Maybe it's not camping ever again with that SM.  I'm not really sure. 

 

#2  The other issue is you are the parent.  You have the right and duty to protect your kids.  IMHO, I, as a parent, would not trust the SM again.  Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances.  Perhaps you need to de-escalate and calm down.  I'm not sure.  I'm not really asserting that.  BUT, do what is best for your son.  He is your main focus.  But if not, it's not really a question of "IF" you switch troops. 

 

By the way, if the other troop is "less" active ... so what.  Just a few people can make a huge difference.  Perhaps you and your sons will help them get way more active.