A letter from my SE

[qwazse]

I googled and had a little deja vu, all over again when I found this , complete with a link back to this forum.

Hmmm, apparently said commenter has embolden media critics.

Timmy: "What is it , Lassie?"

Lassie: (barks at labtop)

Timmy: "Oh no! Mr. Schiff's fallen into the echo chamber!"

Edited July 18, 2017 by qwazse

[Sentinel947]

Wow. We've gone full circle with the fine folks at Patheos. I wonder if our old friend Merlyn is still around?

Edited July 18, 2017 by Sentinel947

[EmberMike]

"Co-ed" doesn't ruffle my feathers, as long as they have their own Troop - or at least their own Patrol(s).  I don't see how any of the aims or methods of Scouting are threatened.

 

"Family Scouting", on the other hand, really gets me irritated.  That's a direct assault on the Patrol Method and, as HashTagScouts points out, above, subverts Leadership Development.

 

Keep in mind this "Family Scouting" initiative is likely aimed at the Cub level, where leadership training is not much of a consideration. My guess would be that at the Boy Scout level it wouldn't be called "Family Scouting". 

 

I don't know this for a fact, but it's a strong suspicion. 

 

I'm in favor of co-ed, generally speaking. But I would be concerned about something called "Family Scouting" at the Boy Scout level and I agree it could subvert leadership development. 

[RememberSchiff]

Whatever the change, I wonder if Councils will provide a resource pool of outdoorsy, scout-enthused women leaders for that coed 10 mile hike, canoe trip, etc.

[Eagledad]

Keep in mind this "Family Scouting" initiative is likely ........................

 

I don't know this for a fact, but it's a strong suspicion. 

 

Yes, we all have theories of how National is going to change.

 

Honesty, I am so tired of discussions of how National is going to change. Can't they just lay back quietly fixing the internal problems for a while and allow the dust to settle. Sheesh.

 

Barry

[Col. Flagg]

Yes, we all have theories of how National is going to change.

 

Honesty, I am so tired of discussions of how National is going to change. Can't they just lay back quietly fixing the internal problems for a while and allow the dust to settle. Sheesh.

 

BSA does not address such key issues because they don't know how. Their answer to everything is to tinker with membership or rank advancement or other such nonsense. It's akin to arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

I think many of us would applaud if BSA just did what they are paid to do: Provide us the tools to develop a quality program, with minimal resources and time investment.

[desertrat77]

Whatever the change, I wonder if Councils will provide a resource pool of outdoorsy, scout-enthused women leaders for that coed 10 mile hike, canoe trip, etc.

'Schiff, I think those women are out there...more of them might be inclined to join the BSA if there is a change.  In my small part of the world, and other places I've been, there are two obstacles for the outdoorsy women:  1)  they aren't always welcome or respected, and b) programming is often sedentary/low speed/car camping oriented.

Edited July 18, 2017 by desertrat77

[Sentinel947]

'Schiff, I think those women are out there...more of them might be inclined to join the BSA if there is a change.  In my small part of the world, and other places I've been, there are two obstacles for the outdoorsy women:  1)  they aren't always welcome or respected, and b) programming is often sedentary/low speed/car camping oriented.

Yup. Went backpacking last week with some friends from college. Half of the group were women. They are out there.

[Col. Flagg]

'Schiff, I think those women are out there...more of them might be inclined to join the BSA if there is a change.  In my small part of the world, and other places I've been, there are two obstacles for the outdoorsy women:  1)  they aren't always welcome or respected, and b) programming is often sedentary/low speed/car camping oriented.

 

 

Yup. Went backpacking last week with some friends from college. Half of the group were women. They are out there.

 

Yes, BUT they are not out there in the quantity needed for a national roll out of coed Scouting. It was hard enough to find them for my Venturing Crew, now I have to find them for my Cub Scout Pack or Scout Troop? Oh, and I don't need just one, I need SEVERAL because I cannot take any girls anywhere if the single lone female leader has something else to do.

 

Let's face it, for coed to be successful units will need to recruit nearly as many adult women as they do adult men. The potential pool for female volunteers willing to get trained and invest the time needs to be HUGE in order to cover the units out there.

[DuctTape]

There are plenty of outdoorsy women out there. In my experience I have found them to be more receptive to learning and training for new adventures and techniques than the guys. This is especially true for the men with scouting experience and doubly for those from the military. The latter two are more often than not the most difficult to accept the boy-led, patrol method.

 

I just came back from a 30 mile backpacking trip with 5 others, 3 of which were women in their 20's and 30's. The two 20-somethings was their first time. They loved it!

[Sentinel947]

Yes, BUT they are not out there in the quantity needed for a national roll out of coed Scouting. It was hard enough to find them for my Venturing Crew, now I have to find them for my Cub Scout Pack or Scout Troop? Oh, and I don't need just one, I need SEVERAL because I cannot take any girls anywhere if the single lone female leader has something else to do.

 

Let's face it, for coed to be successful units will need to recruit nearly as many adult women as they do adult men. The potential pool for female volunteers willing to get trained and invest the time needs to be HUGE in order to cover the units out there.

I'm inclined to agree. I know my unit does not have any female parents that regularly camp.

[qwazse]

I'm inclined to agree. I know my unit does not have any female parents that regularly camp.

We have moms who camp with their families. But, taking a troop out in the big woods? That's men's work.

 

Same applies to my crew ... we have the same problems as Flagg even when we have even numbers of male/female youth. If the GSS didn't require it, many parents would be fine with their girls being under the leadership of two adult males. Or ... under the leadership of an adult youth. Case in point: Son #2 was a welcome guest at many family camps (i.e. cabins) who had more daughters than sons. They could count on him getting the kitchen operating and then cleaned by morning. And, more importantly, without him and his buds, the ladies would be downright unruly.

 

That's why I guess we have the "family camping" rhetoric. BSA doesn't believe it has the volume of men willing to take on co-ed units with minimal assistance from female counterparts (as would happen with an instant change in membership standards). So, they figure they need to recruit those moms of younger youth and hope that somewhere down the road more of them would lead patrol-method units. I view it with some pessimism. It's like ripping a bandage off slowly.

[NJCubScouter]

 I googled and had a little deja vu, all over again when I found this , complete with a link back to this forum.

 

---------------

A commenter at the SCOUTER forum (for local leaders) posted about an email he received over the weekend about upcoming meetings to discuss future changes… that gave no indication at all about what those changes would be.

 

I am pretty sure that what the [scout Executive] will be discussing at this meeting is the admission of girls to Cub and Boy Scouting. But it’s not like the letter actually says that or anything. I think many of my fellow nearby Scouters are going to look at this and decide they do not wish to spend a couple of hours in the middle of the summer (when they might be on vacation and/or at summer camp and unable to attend anyway) discussing “how to make Scouting more accessible to today’s families.â€

…

… are they really interested in “gaining my perspective†(on a topic that they are not actually identifying before the meeting), or is this really part of a nationwide rollout of a decision that they’ve made already? Do they really want my opinion, or are they just going to try to sell me on what they’re going to do anyway? (These are mainly rhetorical questions.)

------------

 

Hmmm,  apparently said commenter has embolden media critics.

 

Look ma, I'm famous.

[Col. Flagg]

There are plenty of outdoorsy women out there. In my experience I have found them to be more receptive to learning and training for new adventures and techniques than the guys. This is especially true for the men with scouting experience and doubly for those from the military. The latter two are more often than not the most difficult to accept the boy-led, patrol method.

 

No one is saying there are not outdoorsy women out there. Of course there are...and ones that can likely kick the butts of many of us here.

 

The problem is supply. It is hard enough to find MEN who are outdoorsy enough and patient enough to allow the patrol method to take root and grow. Now we'd have to find enough WOMEN who can do the same?

 

I live in a major metro area. We have TWO female ASMs and we are VERY accommodating to having them. I have two in our Crew two (different women). But we had to search far and wide to get those four. Imagine having to staff up a troop or pack with an equal number of female leaders as male leaders just to cover ratios, two-deep and male/female engagement!

 

Venturing Advisors know what I mean. It is hard enough in a small crew, imagine a troop of 75 scouts!!

[MattR]

I'm worried bout this as well. But there are a few things that might solve this. I'm not worried about the easy campouts, more so with the challenging ones.

 

1) Do moms not show up because they don't want to be around a situation that is obviously all male. i.e., if there were girls would more moms show up?

 

2) If the troop is girls only then there's no problem for the all boys troops

 

3) While the college aged women that like the outdoors might not be interested in being an adult leader, it might not be too hard to convince a few that the girls 7 years younger than them could really use them as chaperons on campouts. All they need to do is show up and camp. I could see that a lot more than seeing college aged men helping a troop.

 

4) Patrol method. Girls patrol, boys patrol. Do what you want.

 

5) Girls or no, we have to figure this problem out because there are fewer people of either sex with good outdoor skills. Lots of people camp in the summer, few do in the winter. An advancement program for adults would be useful.