A letter from my SE

[Col. Flagg]

Equally amusing are the folks who, again after just 7 months, declare him the greatest president ever. Or had crowned him "the greatest" before he even took the oath.  

 

Success or failure of any elected/appointed to do a job is premature until that role is over.

 

Success or failure of a membership organization who changes its membership or program have more immediate and tangible results. Yes there are long term effects, as there are short term. Measuring the long term effects is harder because more issues can influence the outcome over time.

[fred johnson]

Daughter:  The boys in Boy Scouts are disrespectful, sexual, awkward, vulgar, and overall demeaning towards girls.  Venture boys know how to properly interact and be social with girls...cause I can't tell you how many times us girls have been catcalled and made uncomfortable when we have to walk through strictly Boy Scout camp sites.

 

Sadly.  I can see this happening.  Multiple times I've overheard scout "private" conversations with inappropriate statements.  Boys trying to be men.  

 

A "boys only" environment does enable it.  Young men are learning how to communicate new interests in a "boys only" environment.  I'm not against a "boys only" program, but I do not think "boys only" has anywhere near as much value as people assert.  

 

IMHO, the troop program has value by getting scouts outside in new situations that expand their comfort zones.   Learning new skills.  Dealing with sleeping with spiders and thunderstorms.  Solving issues and learning to work together.

 

Little value is from "boys only".  

Edited July 27, 2017 by fred johnson

[Eagledad]

Sadly.  I can see this happening and a "boys only" environment does enable it.  Young men are learning how to communicate new interests in a "boys only" environment.  I'm not against a "boys only" program, but I do not think "boys only" has anywhere near as much value as people assert.  

 

Shessh, youth mimic their role models. We can't say that "scouting is great because scouts learn from their decisions" in one sentence,  and then follow that with "boys will be boys" in the next sentence.

 

Bad behavior has no association at all with "boys only". The adults are fully responsible for the culture in the scouting unit. That goes for girls and boys.

 

Barry

[Col. Flagg]

Bad behavior has no association at all with "boys only". The adults are fully responsible for the culture in the scouting unit. That goes for girls and boys.

 

I referee competitive youth and college soccer. I can tell you girls can say things on the pitch that would make a merchant sailor blush.

[fred johnson]

Shessh, youth mimic their role models. ... The adults are fully responsible for the culture in the scouting unit. 

 

Barry

 

Scouts do learn from their role models.  But they have way more time and more role models outside scouting than in scouting.  We can emphasize and teach in our own troop, but our scouts interact with other scouts and other troops.  Plus, sometimes we get lucky and have great kids who make our lives easy.  Sometimes we are challenged by scouts who want to push limits and use scouting as their own "freedom" zone to get away with what they can.  

 

 

Bad behavior has no association at all with "boys only". 

I disagree.  Boundaries and separation promote bad behavior as those on the other side of the boundary are bad or less.  Clubs that had membership criteria based on race or gender or orientation were associated with discrimination and bad behavior.  Similar to the "boys only" nature of car maintenance of twenty years ago.  Back then, it was almost 100% male and unquestioned for part vendors to give posters and calendars that we would never show our moms.  

 

"Boys only" has some benefits, but we also have to work to counteract natural consequences.

[Eagledad]

 I disagree.  Boundaries and separation promote bad behavior as those on the other side of the boundary are bad or less.  Clubs that had membership criteria based on race or gender or orientation were associated with discrimination and bad behavior.  Similar to the "boys only" nature of car maintenance of twenty years ago.  Back then, it was almost 100% male and unquestioned for part vendors to give posters and calendars that we would never show our moms.  

 

 

Please read what you just wrote: "Boundaries and separation promote bad behavior as those on the other side of the boundary are bad or less." Bad or less?

 

As I said, adults set the culture of behavior. A patrol of boys is an environment where boys are safe to make choices of behavior so as to learn from results of the choice. Choice isn't a boundary, it's freedom. Expectation is the guide that decisions are measure from. If youth don't have expectations of their behavior choices, then they have nothing to measure right or wrong.

 

Barry

[Snow Owl]

does anyone have a copy of the follow-up survey ?

 

Never mind found it in an earlier post

Edited August 4, 2017 by Snow Owl

[ProScouter06]

Great reading everyone's varied perspectives. Change is inevitable. Since scouting started in the U.K. Here's a link that describes their programs, interesting that gender is not mentioned. http://scouts.org.uk/what-we-do/scouting-age-ranges/

[Hawkwin]

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts going co-ed.  I work with co-ed programs all the time.  The only reason why I work with Boy Scouts as it stands now is because it is an all-male program.  It's is unique.  Once it loses that uniqueness, then any co-ed program will do if I wish to volunteer my time.  I'm already booked with my co-ed church program and a co-ed community program.  I'm not much of a chauvinist, but I really enjoy my Men's Bible study, Lion's club, Boy Scouts, etc.

 

maybe after 50+ years, it's time to step down anyway.  This just might do it for me.

 

It has been a while since I was a Lion but my local group was coed and there are often adult women leaders and volunteers with the Boy Scouts so it isn't really as all-male either - at least not at the comparative peer level.

[NJCubScouter]

It has been a while since I was a Lion but my local group was coed and there are often adult women leaders and volunteers with the Boy Scouts so it isn't really as all-male either - at least not at the comparative peer level.

 

Our local Lion's Club seems to have both men and women as members - and the membership also seems to be at least 90% people of Chinese descent, and given the local demographics, a majority of those were probably born in China. I am sure there is a reason for that, but none that I can figure out.  It's kind of interesting though.

[David CO]

Sadly.  I can see this happening.  Multiple times I've overheard scout "private" conversations with inappropriate statements.  Boys trying to be men.  

 

A "boys only" environment does enable it.  Young men are learning how to communicate new interests in a "boys only" environment.  I'm not against a "boys only" program, but I do not think "boys only" has anywhere near as much value as people assert.  

 

 

I have overheard many similar conversations in the boys' locker room. I don't like it either. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by David CO

[walk in the woods]

Sadly.  I can see this happening.  Multiple times I've overheard scout "private" conversations with inappropriate statements.  Boys trying to be men.  

 

A "boys only" environment does enable it.  Young men are learning how to communicate new interests in a "boys only" environment.  I'm not against a "boys only" program, but I do not think "boys only" has anywhere near as much value as people assert.  

Maybe the appropriate question to be asked given this scenario is who is in the better position to correct the behavior, a female or a male adult leader?  If the language is just boys "trying to be men" it might be equally effective.  If there's an actual belief system taking hold I suspect the corrective would be more powerful coming from a male scoutmaster.    

[Eagledad]

Maybe the appropriate question to be asked given this scenario is who is in the better position to correct the behavior, a female or a male adult leader?  If the language is just boys "trying to be men" it might be equally effective.  If there's an actual belief system taking hold I suspect the corrective would be more powerful coming from a male scoutmaster.    

I am told by my child psychology friends that youth are much more influenced by role models of the same gender, which is one reason I am against going coed at the troop age.

 

But, what really bothers me about Fred's statement is that the Troop is where scouts are supposed to grow in character through the practice of making decisions. Fred is basically saying that the program doesn't work as advertised. I contend that gender only programs (because girls do it also) are only enabled to what their role models view as acceptable.  

 

I've told this story before, but I'm reminded of the time I walked over to watch the troop play capture the flag. They didn't know I was watching because stood out of view. A  new 14 year old transfer started swearing a few four letter words was stopped by another scout who said, "Hey, we don't do that here". The new scout responded with, "Gotcha". And that was that. I have watched discussions on this forum debating the language we should allow scouts. We son't allow some of the language that some adults here think is acceptable. Our scouts know their limits expected by the role models. 

 

Barry