New Eagle Palm Policy, August 2017

[NJCubScouter]

The reason it seems unfair, is not because there is a wrong side of the line. It's because there is a line.

 

Some lines are intuitive. (E.g., you can't go make last century's Eagles decipher EDGE before permitting them to wear their medal again.) This one is not. An Eagle Scout with all of his cards already knows the badges he earned and when he earned them ... there is no extra work involved in ordering the award. "These twenty six were before Eagle, those 5 were three months after, the next 5 were half a year after, etc.. Please ... pass the catch-up Palm."

 

There is just no logical reason why the change needs to be there. But if it is, there is no logical reason (aside from brute ageism) why it should apply to some Eagles and not others.

 

Let me see if I understand you.  Do you think that my son, who made Eagle in 2009, almost at the last possible minute (so no palms), and earned 29 merit badges (3 more than required for one Bronze palm), should now be awarded a Bronze Palm, at the age of 25?  And do you think that my younger brother, who made Eagle in 1981, almost at the last possible minute, and assuming he earned at least 26 merit badges (which I strongly suspect he did), should be awarded one or more palms, in his mid-50's?*  I also know a guy who made Eagle in 1963, whose father (no longer with us, I believe) also made Eagle, presumably sometime in the 30's or early 40's.  I don't know how many MB's either of them earned but I think you get my point.  How far back do you go?

 

(*I just realized my brother may have had to earn 24 MB's for Eagle so the numbers are different, but it doesn't change the basic question.  I am not sure when that was changed back to 21.)

Edited July 31, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[NJCubScouter]

If you have your EBOR tonight (7/31) and are eligible for three palms, you have to work 9 months to get them.

 

And perhaps more importantly, if your 18th birthday was last week, or last month, and your EBOR is tonight, you will never get those palms at all, because you cannot serve three more months after your EBOR.

 

I think that at least 40% of the EBOR's in my troop have been held after the Scout's 18th birthday.

[wdfa89]

If you have your EBOR tonight (7/31) and are eligible for three palms, you have to work 9 months to get them.

 

If you have your EBOR tomorrow (8/1) and are eligible for three palms, you get them at your ECOH without waiting. All subsequent palms you must meet the new requirements for.

Not sure I agree with you.  I don't think it is that clear. 

 

"After successfully completing your Eagle Scout board of review and being validated as an Eagle Scout by the National Service Center, you will be entitled to receive an Eagle Palm for each additional 5 merit badges you have completed before your Eagle Scout board of review. For these Palms only, it will not be necessary for you to complete any of the requirements stated below."

 

post 1 Aug you still have completed an EBOR even if it occurred before 1 Aug.  It does not specify this only applies to EBORs post 1 Aug.  For every other rank when new requirements are implemented one has the choice, for a period of time, to follow the old or the new.  I have seen nothing that states those who earned Eagle prior are bound by old palm requirements.  What is preventing a current Eagle from immediately adopting the new requirements and applying for all their palms.  They have successfully completed an EBOR and have been validated. A strict reading would say they are entitled to receive palms  for each addl 5 completed before.

 

If there is other guidance out there I missed I stand by ready to be corrected.  And I have no real agenda, this has no affect on my troop which is scope of my AOR.

[Stosh]

....unless it's the third Tuesday of the month, then you get 15 palms, a Mardi Gras necklace, two patches and a partridge in a pear tree.

[qwazse]

Let me see if I understand you.  Do you think that my son, who made Eagle in 2009, almost at the last possible minute (so no palms), and earned 29 merit badges (3 more than required for one Bronze palm), should now be awarded a Bronze Palm, at the age of 25?  And do you think that my younger brother, who made Eagle in 1981, almost at the last possible minute, and assuming he earned at least 26 merit badges (which I strongly suspect he did), should be awarded one or more palms, in his mid-50's?*  I also know a guy who made Eagle in 1963, whose father (no longer with us, I believe) also made Eagle, presumably sometime in the 30's or early 40's.  I don't know how many MB's either of them earned but I think you get my point.  How far back do you go?

 

(*I just realized my brother may have had to earn 24 MB's for Eagle so the numbers are different, but it doesn't change the basic question.  I am not sure when that was changed back to 21.)

NJ, absolutely yes! All of them and every Eagle to come, will spend more time as an adult with the award than as a youth. (If death intervenes, I'm not sure. I'd like to think then we can get by saying, "He was an Eagle Scout" without someone interrupting the eulogy.)

 

If they are all in e same room for some NESA event, it seems silly to have to sort out whose palms mean what based on date earned.

[Eagle94-A1]

 

If there is other guidance out there I missed I stand by ready to be corrected.  And I have no real agenda, this has no affect on my troop which is scope of my AOR.

 

Under the FAQs on Bryan's Blog, they give guidance that if you had your EBOR this past Monday or earlier, you have to wait 3 months per palm. Yesterday and onwards, you can have 'insta-palms."

 

And yes, I am part of the 94% who took the poll and opposed "insta-palms."

[Back Pack]

Under the FAQs on Bryan's Blog, they give guidance that if you had your EBOR this past Monday or earlier, you have to wait 3 months per palm. Yesterday and onwards, you can have 'insta-palms."

 

And yes, I am part of the 94% who took the poll and opposed "insta-palms."

Yup. Just what Flagg said.

[Stosh]

When any administration ignores what the boots on the ground are saying, they are going to have problems.  It's a lesson few learn.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Stosh

[wdfa89]

Under the FAQs on Bryan's Blog, they give guidance that if you had your EBOR this past Monday or earlier, you have to wait 3 months per palm. Yesterday and onwards, you can have 'insta-palms."

 

And yes, I am part of the 94% who took the poll and opposed "insta-palms."

 

again, w/ no axe to grind, no horse in the race and just because debating on the internet with anonymous strangers is fun (or more fun than doing actual work) are responses to FAQ's in Bryan's Blog now official policy statements and binding guidance?  I absolutely follow the logic and don't disagree with it but that isn't what is in the actual guidance put forth and one could read/interpret it differently and if they haven't checked with the FAQ section of Bryan's Blog, well...

 

 

But yes I see the answer the National Boy Scout Subcommittee provided to the FAQ section of Bryan's Blog and it is clear.  I am not arguing against it, probably agreeing this was done in a bit of a ham handed manner.

[fred johnson]

I'm part of the six percent.  I have not seen this asserted 94% survey.

 

"QUANTITATIVE" to earn a palm ... same old and new

• Active ... 3 months ... effectively registered.  Unless troop has their own long-standing active standards for all ranks.
• Merit badges ... five ... usually earned years in the past ... We can hold a scout accountable to fulfill this explicit requirement.
• SMC ... one
• Spirit ... not measurable
• Leadership ... not measurable ... "satisfactory" ... hard to say they did not meet this

 

"EFFORT" to earn a palm ... same old and new

• 5% effort is the SMC
• 10% to 20% effort is the leadership
• 75% to 85% effort is earning the five merit badges

IN THE PAST ... I've cringed with palms as ...

• The number of palms reflected the age Eagle was earned.
• Palms rarely did not reflect any significant "NEW" extra effort.
• Reasons
  • Effort was usually long in the past.  The rare exception was a newly earned MB.
  • Three months was mostly a "wait" and not reflecting any new effort.  
  • Little leadership beyond being a good example to other scouts.  
  • Mostly, palms were mostly a "showing up" award
  • Scouts seeing someone get more bling with little effort ... worst part.  People getting awards without earning new MBs or having a formal leadershp role. 

NEW CHANGE RESULTS

• No more "I've got enough merit badges to earn Eagle" ... There is always a reason now to keep doing more merit badges ... both before and after earning Eagle.
• No more earning eagle, mostly sitting around and getting more awards.  Now, if you want another award after earning Eagle, you are actually doing measurable effort.

Edited August 2, 2017 by fred johnson

[Back Pack]

No more earning eagle, mostly sitting around and getting more awards.  Now, if you want another award after earning Eagle, you are actually doing measurable effort.

You had to work for Palms after Eagle with the old rules. Not sure I get your point.

 

Under the new rules guys are getting Palms for no extra work. Under the old program they would have had to earn them.

[Stosh]

You had to work for Palms after Eagle with the old rules. Not sure I get your point.

 

Under the new rules guys are getting Palms for no extra work. Under the old program they would have had to earn them.

Take away the Eagle rank demarcation would it have been better to have earned MB's prior to Eagle count?  They put in an extra 3 months of POR, did all the requirements, etc. with no double dipping into advancement requirements.  That way the requirements would have been the same, but they would have earned them.

 

I have always been a proponent of having the boys earn their 21 EMB's and THEN start counting the Palm requirements.  This is basically what happens now, having to get the 21 in for Eagle.  So as a Star scout, he has his 21 done, then he can start earning Eagle Palms by putting in requirements SEPARATE from those for Star and Eagle, and then have them presented with the Eagle?

 

Yes, I'm not at all in favor of just handing out Palms like candy, but there are those out there that do earn them (following all the MB/POR requirements) prior to reaching the Eagle rank.  This process was not recognized by the new ruling.

[fred johnson]

Under the old program they would have had to earn them.

 

I hugely disagree with that.  Hugely.  My experience with multiple troops is that scouts just after their ECOH target dates they need to have SMC and palm BORs.  Then, there is not much more than their previous participation level and making sure SMC and BOR happen on those dates.  

 

The new rules add value to continued participation in the MB process.  

[Stosh]

I hugely disagree with that.  Hugely.  My experience with multiple troops is that scouts just after their ECOH target dates they need to have SMC and palm BORs.  Then, there is not much more than their previous participation level and making sure SMC and BOR happen on those dates.  

 

The new rules add value to continued participation in the MB process.  

 

Not really, they imply the continuation of the rank advancement process.  I don't think, other than the 21 EMB's the two should continue to coincide.  One is awards the other is rank.  That's two different animals altogether.  Maybe by separating the two it would still "add value to continued participation in the MB process".  But one would do it for the award, not the rank.

[Eagle94-A1]

The Survey was done in December 2014, and the results published were published in march-April 2015 on page 12 of this document found here:

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2015_Mar-April.pdf

 

Some details of the results:

 

69% of respondents agreed at some level that the Eagle Palm program is an important factor in retaining Scouts.

 

80% agreed at some level that Eagle Palms strengthen the unit through continued participation of Eagle Scouts.

 

85 percent of those polled disagreed with awarding Palms based solely on earning five merit badges.  In effect the new policy makes the "insta-palms" soley based on 5 extra MBs.

 

81 percent rejected the idea of allowing additional active time at Life rank to count toward Eagle Palms. In effect, the new policy does exactly this by awarding palms without 3 months additional tenure as an Eagle.

 

75 percent rated the three months of tenure as “very important, and another 19 percent rated it as “important.†  (OK,  I was off a bit with my statement above. but it still is 94% thought 3 months were important.)

 

78 percent agreed that three months was the proper tenure

 

80 percent agreed that activity outside the troop or patrol should be allowed in meeting the tenure requirement

 

87 percent rated the Scout spirit requirement as “very important,â€

 

69 percent rated the leadership requirement similarly.

 

Regarding whether or not Bryan's Blog can be considered an official BSA source of policy, that question was asked on one of the blogs comments, and the answer was YES.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Eagle94-A1