New Eagle Palm Policy, August 2017

[Col. Flagg]

When I was a JASM, my SM considered me an adult, even if I wasn't technically by age. Duties, behavior, decision making. Spent more time with the adults than the scouts. Went to adult training, RT etc. Learned a heck of a lot about scouting and was even better prepared for life after high school. One of the best jobs I had in scouting. Superb mentorship.

 

I have to agree...and @@backpack is right. I use my JASMs more than my ASMs. Some of the ASMs are just worthless. However, my JASMs are guys I can count on to be up early, proactively look around for ways to help, monitor situations, offer guidance and advice when needed and to be the "big brother" to all Scouts. They've been the best tool I've had as SM.

[qwazse]

... The requirement was "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability".  Pretty much anything positive fulfills this requirement.  The new requirements are similar "Continue to set a satisfactory example of accepting responsibility or demonstrating leadership ability"  Your troop may be requiring more, but the wording is different that you stated.   One day of helping a younger scout pretty much fulfills what BSA states as a requirement.  

This is another example of drift causing BSA to waste words.

What is "satisfactory effort"?

Well, effort that satisfies someone. Who is that someone? The SM and the troop committee!

You might cook me up a very nice steak and serve me a bit-size portion on day one, but if that's all you're doing, don't expect me to give your restaurant a 5 star review at the end of the week. (That's my beef against pretentious restaurants: small portions on big plates, as if I'm supposed to be impressed by the china.)

So no, pretty much anything positive never did, does not, nor should ever fulfill the requirement.

 

Same thing for the "active" requirement. Some fool asked for a rule from national, and over the years got a list of things we shouldn't hold against a scout (nominal dues payments, lack of attendance - if not specified in advance, shoddy appearance, etc ...) boiled down to oh-so-much-blathering in the GTA. The correct answer that will stand the test of time, IMHO: It's none of national's business, don't ask them, read the BSHB and ask your troop.

 

If you think that those non-MB requirements were hollow as written previously, they will continue to be in the new writing.

Edited July 18, 2017 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

 

Same thing for the "active" requirement. Some fool asked for a rule from national, and over the years got a list of things we shouldn't hold against a scout (nominal dues payments, lack of attendance - if not specified in advance, shoddy appearance, etc ...) boiled down to oh-so-much-blathering in the GTA. The correct answer that will stand the test of time, IMHO: It's none of national's business, don't ask them, read the BSHB and ask your troop.

 

Ahhh! Music to my ears. 

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

When I was a JASM, my SM considered me an adult, even if I wasn't technically by age. Duties, behavior, decision making. Spent more time with the adults than the scouts. Went to adult training, RT etc. Learned a heck of a lot about scouting and was even better prepared for life after high school. One of the best jobs I had in scouting. Superb mentorship.

One of the goals in our program is to continually challenge the scout so that he continually matures. Most or our scouts have matured by 15 or 16 years old to where they need the kind of experience that desertrat describes. We even had a couple of 14 year old JASMs because their maturity warranted it. It wasn't a right of passage, but more higher learning.

 

I don't think we had the JASM position in the 70's and I don't remember what we called scouts with JASM level of maturity. But I had so much respect for them because they were super scouts to me. We were a big troop, but we didn't have a lot of Eagles. Back then it was Arrowmen and JASM scouts who had our deepest admiration. 

 

Barry 

[Col. Flagg]

I don't think we had the JASM position in the 70's and I don't remember what we called scouts with JASM level of maturity.

 

You mean Leadership Corps? We had JASMs and LC. Those guys were the bad a$$ Scouts. They could build a shelter from a match box and make you omelettes from water, grass and some seeds. At least that's how I remember them. 

 

My old SM (may he rest in peace) used those guys like a Seal Team when he needed something done. Those guys were operators!!!

[Eagledad]

You mean Leadership Corps? We had JASMs and LC. Those guys were the bad a$$ Scouts. They could build a shelter from a match box and make you omelettes from water, grass and some seeds. At least that's how I remember them. 

 

My old SM (may he rest in peace) used those guys like a Seal Team when he needed something done. Those guys were operators!!!

Did you grow up in Bethany Ok? Sure sounds like the same troop.

 

Barry

[Col. Flagg]

Did you grow up in Bethany Ok? Sure sounds like the same troop.

 

Nope. DC area. We had a "institutional green" bus. Took out the last few rows for gear. That bus went everywhere. Drove to Philmont among other places. Summer was hot, winter was freezing. Some how we didn't die and turned out alright.

[NJCubScouter]

I don't think we had the JASM position in the 70's and I don't remember what we called scouts with JASM level of maturity.

My father was a JASM in the early 40's (I have written proof in some of the memorabilia he left behind) and I was a JASM in the mid-70's, so it's been around since before any of us here were involved in Scouting.  (Although I realize TAHAWK's official BSA records have him earning awards more than 100 years ago.)

 

Someone else mentioned the Leadership Corps, which was introduced while I was a Scout. I don't think the JASM was a member of the Leadership Corps, which was made up of the SPL, ASPL's and other older Scouts (not including PL's). A JASM (who, in my old troop, was usually a former SPL) was "beyond" the Leadership Corps and basically functioned as an ASM to the extent possible.

Edited July 18, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Eagledad]

Nope. DC area. We had a "institutional green" bus. Took out the last few rows for gear. That bus went everywhere. Drove to Philmont among other places. Summer was hot, winter was freezing. Some how we didn't die and turned out alright.

Same here, only our bus was orange. Had all the windows down driving to Philmont. I don't remember it being cold, but then Oklahoma doesn't get as cold as DC. 

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

My father was a JASM in the early 40's (I have written proof in some of the memorabilia he left behind) and I was a JASM in the mid-70's, so it's been around since before any of us here were involved in Scouting.  (Although I realize TAHAWK's official BSA records have him earning awards more than 100 years ago.)

 

Someone else mentioned the Leadership Corps, which was introduced while I was a Scout. I don't think the JASM was a member of the Leadership Corps, which was made up of the SPL, ASPL's and other older Scouts (not including PL's). A JASM (who, in my old troop, was usually a former SPL) was "beyond" the Leadership Corps and basically functioned as an ASM to the extent possible.

The average patrol leader back then was either driving or in drivers ed. So our scout leadership was very mature.

 

We always had a lot of dads camp with us, but we rarely saw them. I'm not sure what they did all day. But scouting back then was different. It was a guy thing where even the dads like to hang out.

 

The program was more boy run as well because adults back then trusted youth independence. Parent didn't worry about kids back then the way they do today because the community as a whole was safe. We talk a lot of idealist patrol method today because so few adults work that kind of program. But that was more of a default program back then. Boy run wasn't a buzz phrase because boy run was the norm. 

 

Barry

Edited July 18, 2017 by Eagledad

[krikkitbot]

 Parent didn't worry about kids back then the way they do today because the community as a whole was safe. 

 

Statistically, we live in a safer world now. The main difference is the world of instant news. We find out about everything from every corner of the world instantly and thus feel less safe. 

[Col. Flagg]

Same here, only our bus was orange. Had all the windows down driving to Philmont. I don't remember it being cold, but then Oklahoma doesn't get as cold as DC. 

 

I'm not sure Barry. I live in North Texas now and have camped in the panhandle during winter in some pretty chilly sub-zero temps. I'd venture when those clippers come down from Canada and bottom out along the Red River, it's a site darn colder than DC ever gets.

[Oldscout448]

This might not come up at all but...  I have a scout in my troop who took forever with his eagle project, passed his Eagle board a week before he turned 18.   But he had earned 27 merit badges.   

 

If he comes asking " How come the scouts who eagle next month with extra badges get to wear palms and I don't?"  I really really don't know how to answer him.

 

Part of me says Well those were the rules at the time. Unfair or not the rules were the rules.   The other part says  Just hand the young man a bronze palm and tell him its up to him to wear it or not.

 

Oldscout

[Stosh]

That age limit is always a bummer.  Picking a number out of the air and saying this is the cutoff will always be a concern for some.  It's an unfortunate lesson we all have to learn.  Having a palm will not make him a better person in the long run and letting him know that YOU think he deserves the palm even if BSA doesn't may gain a bit of mileage for the boy.  

 

This is always going to happen every time someone "changes the rules in the middle of the game".

[Eagle94-A1]

LOTS of controversy on this one. Especially since it went against 94% of those surveyed.