DuctTape Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 @fredjohnon, then why call them Eagle Palms? Just call the MB Palms and be one with it. In essence this is what they are doing. Apparently the patch for completing the mBs is not enough, they want to give an additional award for simply finishing an arbitrary number of mbs. Why use multiples of 5? Why not use palm leaves for addional mbs earned in a more distinct sequence? Say after 1 extra, then 1 more, then 2, 3, 5, 8... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 In essence this is what they are doing. Apparently the patch for completing the mBs is not enough, they want to give an additional award for simply finishing an arbitrary number of mbs. Why use multiples of 5? Why not use palm leaves for addional mbs earned in a more distinct sequence? Say after 1 extra, then 1 more, then 2, 3, 5, 8... If that's what they do then fine. But don't call them "Eagle Palms" and don't affix them to the Eagle medal. Call them MB Palms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 @fredjohnon, then why call them Eagle Palms? Just call the MB Palms and be one with it. Yeah, I really don't care what you call it. The old system was bad in that Eagle scouts would regularly get awards for doing essentially squat. I'm not saying the new approach is perfect, but at least the post-eagle awards are tied to something current and not just work done before they earned Eagle. I had grown to dislike palms as they seemed more about scouts manipulating than doing work. "Oh, I complete my ECOH on this date and I have a chance to get three palms." but the catch is what does the scout have to do after the ECOH to get those palms ... close to nothing. At least the new approach better ties the work to the award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Yeah, I really don't care what you call it. The old system was bad in that Eagle scouts would regularly get awards for doing essentially squat. I'm not saying the new approach is perfect, but at least the post-eagle awards are tied to something current and not just work done before they earned Eagle. I had grown to dislike palms as they seemed more about scouts manipulating than doing work. "Oh, I complete my ECOH on this date and I have a chance to get three palms." but the catch is what does the scout have to do after the ECOH to get those palms ... close to nothing. At least the new approach better ties the work to the award. In our troop you needed to be active and hold a leadership role (usually JASM). So you couldn't just be registered, convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and get your badges (which is what the new systems allows pre-Eagle). The new system literally gives them an award for getting MBs. The old system required them to be active and hold a leader position. Now, if some troops did not the Eagles' feet to the fire and simply handed them out, that's their problem. Our Eagle worked for their palms. Now they just get a trophy, er, palm for doing nothing more. I'd rather they call the MB palms because they have nothing to do with Eagle anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 If I ran the zoo, said young Gerald Magrew, there's be a few changes, that's just what I would do..... MB's prior to Eagle should only count for rank advancement if they are one of the 21 required. Otherwise they don't count for palm, they count for Eagle. In this case they double dip. Elective MB's prior to Eagle should also require POR time OTHER THAN POR for rank, otherwise they are double dipping there too. So. Eagle candidate Johnny is to get his Eagle. He has his 21 required MB. for his rank advancement. But he also has an additional 5 elective palms and did an additional 3 month POR prior to Eagle, he also gets a palm. It's earned and he's entitled to it. That same candidate shows up at his ECOH with 26 MB's should not get his Eagle and 5 palms for double dipping the requirements. I also don't think that JASM should count for palm POR. The POR should be an actual functioning POR. Maybe it's only a patrol QM, but it's more than just sitting around with the other ASM's jaw-jacking and drinking coffee which is what ASM's do most of the time anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) The old system required them to be active and hold a leader position. Old requirement never stated a POR duration or even the requirement to hold a leadership "position". The requirement was "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability". Pretty much anything positive fulfills this requirement. The new requirements are similar "Continue to set a satisfactory example of accepting responsibility or demonstrating leadership ability" Your troop may be requiring more, but the wording is different that you stated. One day of helping a younger scout pretty much fulfills what BSA states as a requirement. Edited July 17, 2017 by fred johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 ... double dip ... ... 3 months of POR ... I am not sure where the double dipping discussion came from, but I agree with the double dipping should not happen. Didn't before. Should not in the future. Scout has 26 MBs, that's 21 for Eagle and 5 for a palm. Pretty straight forward. "3 months of POR" ... There is no three months of POR with palm. Never has been. It's 3 months active. You could have one day of leadership and fulfill the palm requirements. ... I do sympathize though. Palms awarded with Eagle avoid the extra "active" time. I'm just not that concerned with that part as most scouts are active far longer than the 16 months critical to earning Eagle. I'm more concerned with giving awards years after the work was done. The new change makes recognition closer to when the work was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Old requirement never stated a POR duration or even the requirement to hold a leadership "position". The requirement was "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability". Pretty much anything positive fulfills this requirement. The new requirements are similar "Continue to set a satisfactory example of accepting responsibility or demonstrating leadership ability" Your troop may be requiring more, but the wording is different that you stated. One day of helping a younger scout pretty much fulfills what BSA states as a requirement. I don't think I am expressing my position clearly: Old Rule Palms only given after Eagle awarded. Scout needed to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. This meant they had to be active, provide leadership and have an SMC and BOR for six months after their EBOR in order to get their two palms. New Rule Palms given now same time as Eagle. Scout no longer has to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. Rather than get another six months of leadership and activity from this Scout, he only needs to meet the post-Eagle plam requirements if he wants more than two palms. * Our troop required a leadership position or a clear delineation of how leadership would be demonstrated in order to qualify for palms. The SM met with Eagles to determine if they wanted a leadership role or how they would meet this requirement. It is documented and then evaluated as we would a POR. So we agree that AFTER Eagle is awarded, there is little difference in who the palms are awarded. But I essentially lose six months of activity and leadership from this hypothetical Scout which was previously required. That's not a positive change. That's giving an award for going to MB class. Nothing more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I don't think I am expressing my position clearly: Old Rule Palms only given after Eagle awarded. Scout needed to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. This meant they had to be active, provide leadership and have an SMC and BOR for six months after their EBOR in order to get their two palms. New Rule Palms given now same time as Eagle. Scout no longer has to a) be active in our troop, b) hold a leadership position (usually JASM)* or otherwise demonstrate leadership, have an SMC and BOR. Rather than get another six months of leadership and activity from this Scout, he only needs to meet the post-Eagle plam requirements if he wants more than two palms. * Our troop required a leadership position or a clear delineation of how leadership would be demonstrated in order to qualify for palms. The SM met with Eagles to determine if they wanted a leadership role or how they would meet this requirement. It is documented and then evaluated as we would a POR. So we agree that AFTER Eagle is awarded, there is little difference in who the palms are awarded. But I essentially lose six months of activity and leadership from this hypothetical Scout which was previously required. That's not a positive change. That's giving an award for going to MB class. Nothing more. AFTER Eagle ... little difference. MBs earned before Eagle ... I guess it's what you want to emphasize. I really don't like the gaming of the system that happens now. Scouts, parents and leaders near (before or after) almost always calculate how many palms the scout can earn ... WITHOUT doing any new MBs. Whether you like it or not, Eagle palms are mostly about MBs. I like the change as it clears the slate. Future awards are based on future work. Your troop solves it by treating the Eagle palm leadership requirement effectively the same as the Star, Life and Eagle leadership requirements even though they are worded drastically differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuctTape Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 The gaming would be more extreme with the new changes. One could just hold off on their eagle BOR and pump up their mbs until the last minute. Why not just do away with star and life while we are at it. Go directly from FC to eagle by eliminating the active, leadership, and other reqs. I can see this from both perspectives though. I just see there is more upside to the current structure than the soon-to-be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 The gaming would be more extreme with the new changes. One could just hold off on their eagle BOR and pump up their mbs until the last minute. Why not just do away with star and life while we are at it. Go directly from FC to eagle by eliminating the active, leadership, and other reqs. I can see this from both perspectives though. I just see there is more upside to the current structure than the soon-to-be. I have four Eagle due for EBORs who have pulled their applications for AFTER 8/1/17 as a result of this announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 My mistake, being active, ,hold a leadership position or demonstrate leadership has nothing to do with any functional POR. JASM is nothing more than a skirt around to the intent of the requirement. As adult ASM's are told to do nothing a scout can't do for himself, a JASM does even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) I have four Eagle due for EBORs who have pulled their applications for AFTER 8/1/17 as a result of this announcement. I advise my scouts who are on the path to Eagle to 1. earn it before you start filling out college and scholarship applications (junior year) 2. earn it before National changes the requirements, e.g., Cooking MB. Edited July 18, 2017 by RememberSchiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back Pack Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 My mistake, being active, ,hold a leadership position or demonstrate leadership has nothing to do with any functional POR. JASM is nothing more than a skirt around to the intent of the requirement. As adult ASM's are told to do nothing a scout can't do for himself, a JASM does even less. Then you're doing it wrong. In my troop JASMs are worth more than most ASMs! The JASMs help the PLs and serve as a role model for the troop. It's all in how the SM decides to use them. If JASMs in your troop are not worth anything I suggest you look at your scoutmaster and ask him why. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertrat77 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) When I was a JASM, my SM considered me an adult, even if I wasn't technically by age. Duties, behavior, decision making. Spent more time with the adults than the scouts. Went to adult training, RT etc. Learned a heck of a lot about scouting and was even better prepared for life after high school. One of the best jobs I had in scouting. Superb mentorship. Edited July 18, 2017 by desertrat77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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