New Eagle Palm Policy, August 2017

[DuctTape]

I agree with stosh. The last statement reminds me of something I said to my wife early on... If I ever say or do anything that can be interpreted in more than one way and one of those ways makes you upset, I meant it the other way.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DuctTape

[Cleveland Rocks]

And that's based on the view that the only thing scouts want is bling.

 

I would venture to say that it's not the Scouts that want the bling, it's the parents.  It starts in Cub Scouts. In Cub Scouts, you get bling for everything. Complete a requirement, get a bead. Or a pin. Or a belt loop. Or a patch.  When I used to work staff at our Cub Day Camp, we had to come up with creative things to give the Cubs special beads for their Day Camp necklace. Even just showing up at the stations got you a bead.  Pinewood Derby time: everyone gets a participation ribbon. Some Packs have done away with 1st-2nd-3rd place trophies, for fear of upsetting someone. Some Packs have done away with the turtle award for slowest car because that could be humiliating to the person who came in last place. They come up with creative awards, like "best car that looks like a pizza slice", so that everyone gets a trophy.

 

Now, those Cubs have graduated to Boy Scouts, and parents still think it's the same. They think it's Webelos III.  When my son and I were visiting troops years ago, one troop we visited gave out beads at the end of every meeting that went on a leather patch on their right pocket every time they passed a T-2-1 requirement. That way, they said, everyone got something at every meeting, and it was supposed to serve as motivation to finish the ranks, just like the "Progress Towards Ranks" beads Wolves and Bears used to have.  "But what if they didn't complete a requirement at this meeting?" I asked. "They still get a 'Scout Spirit' bead," the Scoutmaster said.

 

I've had parents come up to me after Courts of Honor wanting to know why their son didn't get anything at the COH. I explained to them that he didn't advance any ranks, earn any merit badges or earn any other awards. "Well, that stinks," the mom said. "In Cub Scouts, they found something to recognize ALL the boys for at every awards."  I explained (again) that this isn't Cub Scouts anymore and you have to actually have done something in order to receive recognition for it. She still didn't like my answer, insisting that we should find bling for all the boys to receive so they don't feel left out. I explained that feeling left out is an okay thing to have happen, and that it should serve as motivation to get things completed for the next Court of Honor. Sure enough, that Scout had a rank and merit badges completed for the next COH.

 

Our OA lodge hands out participation beads at every event you go to.  The adults all proudly wear these long necklaces with dozens of beads on them at the events. The Scouts? I don't see any Scouts with them on, save for the youth lodge leadership.  My son's sits in his memory box at home. If he gets a bead at an event, it goes into the memory box when he gets home.  Meh.

Go read the Facebook forum discussions on this topic, and you'll see it's a lot of the parents who are doing the complaining (yes, there are some Scouts, and recent Eagles complaining, but it's mostly the parents). I'd venture that the sons of all these parents complaining don't care one way or the other.

 

The quest for bling lies not with the Scouts, but with their parents, and their desire to not have their son's feelings hurt.  Or so they think.

[Col. Flagg]

I would venture to say that it's not the Scouts that want the bling, it's the parents. 

 

This!!

 

In over ten years in my role I have never had a Scout worried about palms BEFORE Eagle. They focus on the rank. After Eagle a few have engaged in palm discussions but most (99%) have not.

 

On the other hand, I would say nearly 90% of all PARENTS of guys near Eagle have pushed, prodded, cajoled and down-right bulldozed the way for the kid to get palms.

[Eagledad]

This!!

 

In over ten years in my role I have never had a Scout worried about palms BEFORE Eagle. They focus on the rank. After Eagle a few have engaged in palm discussions but most (99%) have not.

 

On the other hand, I would say nearly 90% of all PARENTS of guys near Eagle have pushed, prodded, cajoled and down-right bulldozed the way for the kid to get palms.

My experience is different. Parents want the Eagle, once that is accomplished, they pretty much back off. But some scouts enjoy completing MBs and keep going.

 

I think bling is condescending because it implies a reward without effort. The effort to earn a MB is the same after Eagle as it was before.

 

Personally I'm glad each scout finds his ,so called bling, in our program because he is doing scouting stuff. We had a couple of scouts obsessed with having the lightest back packs. Another obsessed service projects. One scout loved planning activities and another liked creating outdoor recipes. They were going above and beyond everyone's expectations for their own personal enjoyment, IN OUR SCOUT PROGRAM. Is racking up a lot of MBs really that hard to understand. 

 

As for the National's recognition change, I wish they would leave well enough alone if for only the reason that a scout could have the same experience (bragging rights) as his grandpa. Of course Eagle requirements have changed over the years, but it is still pretty cool to see three or four generations of Eagles from the same family standing together. 

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

The last statement reminds me of something I said to my wife early on... If I ever say or do anything that can be interpreted in more than one way and one of those ways makes you upset, I meant it the other way.

 

Does that work?  

[Stosh]

Not if both upset her. 

[DuctTape]

It used to work better when we were younger. Not so much anymore.

[desertrat77]

For those that strive for greater visibility of the Eagle rank, the change (and ensuing publicity) will be a boon.

 

Instead of pinning on the Eagle medal at a ceremony and rarely seeing it again, more Eagles will now reappear at troop courts of honor for palm pin on. 

 

Hopefully this won't morph into the grand ceremonial flourishes that characterize Eagle COHs today.

Edited July 13, 2017 by desertrat77

[qwazse]

...

Hopefully this won't morph into the grand ceremonial flourishes that characterize Eagle COHs today.

Ooh! Maybe like when I was in grade school and we got paddled: one for each year of age on our birthday ...

Mom pins the medal.

Dad places the necker.

SPL breaks out the hickory switch and delivers a swat per palm!

[gumbymaster]

I agree with eliminating the BOR - for most units, it's hard enough to schedule a BOR for regular ranks, let alone Palms.  Lets remember the main purpose of a BOR - it's not to test Scouts, its to see how the Scout is doing, what they like about the Troop, what they like about the Program.  While all that can be learned in a good Scoutmaster Conference, the BOR is the committees opportunity to hear it first hand.  By the time a Scout is an Eagle Scout, the committee is already going to have a pretty good idea of what a particular Scout enjoys and doesn't enjoy, and how a particular Scout thinks.  Is there really any more value to hearing from them every three months thereafter?  A Scoutmaster Conference should be more than sufficient for Palms.

 

While I generally agree that the BOR requirement in this case was more of an impediment, slowing down scouts who wanted to earn the palms, I think I disagree with your reasoning here. 

 

If, as a committee member, I want to get a good idea of how well the unit program is functioning, the two people I want to hear from the most are:

• the newest scout who just joined (having fun, learning what you need to, understand the process, etc), and
• the most experienced scouts (i.e. Eagles that stay), because they have a good idea of how the program has evolved (better/worse), are effectively beyond politics and personality conflicts because they already have their eagle and can be more honest in their assessments, and they can tell me if the troop program is able to keep and retain the interest of the older boys that we need to keep to teach the younger ones, and if not, what might be done about it.

Now, given that, I really don't have to wait for a BOR to have that discussion with the Scout, so I'm still good.

[Col. Flagg]

Instead of pinning on the Eagle medal at a ceremony and rarely seeing it again, more Eagles will now reappear at troop courts of honor for palm pin on. 

 

Actually, they do that with the old rules. If I make Eagle today and am eligible for five palms I have to wait 15 months to get them all, so I will be attending all COHs between now and then.

 

Under the NEW program, if I make Eagle 8/2/17 and am eligible for five palms I get them ALL at the August COH. You may never see me again at a COH after that unless I get more palms or something else.

 

I'd argue we are LESS likely to see these Eagles again after this change.

[NJCubScouter]

I just realized that we have a Scout in our troop (well, actually now he's an ASM) who may qualify for this depending on exactly when his EBOR is held.  He turned 18 the first week of July and as far as I know he completed all of his requirements before that.  (Probably a day or two before that, but before that.)  I don't know how many MB's he has but I suspect he has at least 26, so if the new rules apply to him he would get at least one palm.  As far as I know his EBOR has not been scheduled yet, in which case it seems likely that his EBOR will be held after August 1, when this goes into effect.  I read the info on Bryan's Blog to see whether the key date would be his birthday or his EBOR date, and it isn't perfectly clear, but it seems to be the EBOR date.  Which is interesting because he couldn't "earn" any advancements after his birthday, and at that time you needed the three months after the EBOR to get a palm.  Keep in mind that I don't even know for sure whether he has enough merit badges for a palm, but if he does, I think he gets it if his EBOR is after Aug. 1.

[fred johnson]

I can understand the frustration.  I had to think on this one.  Here are the reasons I like the change.

• Life scout with at least the needed 21 merit badges ... With old approach, why keep doing merit badges?  They can make Eagle.  They got their job done. ... With new approach, two more and you get a palm at the Eagle COH.
• Eagle scout with 45 merit badges and one year left in the program.   With old approach, why keep doing merit badges?  You can't earn more palms.  ... With new approach, you can do more work and get more awards right up to 18.

IMHO, the new approach provides and incentive for scouts to work merit badges.  

 

What I disliked about the old approach was scouts were regularly getting awards every several months for badges they earned years in the past.  It was almost comical.  I've seen scouts stop doing merit badges at 14 but then calculate how many palms they could earn until they age out.  The key focus was on submitting paperwork on the right days.  I like the new approach as the scouts standing up at troop COHs will now be recognized for current work.

[Col. Flagg]

@fredjohnon, then why call them Eagle Palms? Just call the MB Palms and be one with it.

[EmberMike]

On the other hand, I would say nearly 90% of all PARENTS of guys near Eagle have pushed, prodded, cajoled and down-right bulldozed the way for the kid to get palms.

 

What's the parent motivation for pushing for palms? I understand why some parents push for Eagle, to some it's a nice resume/college application item. But why palms? Most people outside of scouting don't even know what palms are, they don't have the name recognition that Eagle does.