Be careful out there!

[Col. Flagg]

We just returned from Philmont yesterday.

 

One of our crews had a scout who nearly lost an eye to a limb after retrieving a bear bag in the dark. (One observation this time is that Philmont consistently chooses the bears over the scouts. Another is that some of the back country staff are getting arrogant.) We are still waiting to see how badly the eye is damaged. He apparently won't  lose the eye, but will lose the tear duct. He's 14....that's a long time with a dry eye. 

 

Our sister crew climbed the Tooth of Time to spread the ashes of two ASMs who were killed at Northern Tier last year when a tree fell on their tent and crushed them to death. Never heard about that one anywhere.

 

We also were discussing tent placement when someone mentioned the the Philmont incident two years ago where the scout drowned in the flash flood. Our ranger (who I liked a lot) several times said during that discussion, "We don't like to talk about that here."

 

I think a lot of this is actually suppressed.

 

Sorry to hear about the Scout's eye. Hope all is okay.

 

Regarding the death's at Northern Tier, they were from my area. It was a female ASM and a Scout. The young man went to my brother's unit's CO but both were part of a different troop. The deaths were well-reported in North Texas. Happened June of last year. Must be the same event unless NT lost 4 people last year. 

 

The Ponil Canyon incident is something every Philmont crew, ranger and staff person should always have at the forefront of their mind. IMHO it could have been avoided with better training and logistics.

[Ankylus]

Sorry to hear about the Scout's eye. Hope all is okay.

 

Regarding the death's at Northern Tier, they were from my area. It was a female ASM and a Scout. The young man went to my brother's unit's CO but both were part of a different troop. The deaths were well-reported in North Texas. Happened June of last year. Must be the same event unless NT lost 4 people last year. 

 

The Ponil Canyon incident is something every Philmont crew, ranger and staff person should always have at the forefront of their mind. IMHO it could have been avoided with better training and logistics.

 

 

Thank you. As mentioned, we are waiting to see about the eye.

 

Thank you for telling me about NT. The sister crew was from Carollton, and the ASM was a female. I believe they are Troop 121.  If I recollect correctly, you are from that area, so perhaps we are talking about the same incident.

 

I agree with your last point entirely, but I would expand it beyond Philmont, as I would with the NT incident. And it needs to come through scout resources rather than media reports. I have taken the online hazardous weather training twice and I cannot recall any significant mention of falling trees, for example, although there is talk about flash flooding. But not enough. We were in a trail camp last week where the campsites were not well marked. I could tell from the soil that significant areas of the camp had experienced flooding at some recent time. And I knew that not through any kind of training or information I learned through scouting. It would have been easy just to throw off the packs and camp there because it was flat and sandy. First thing that popped into my mind was the Ponil Canyon flood. But if Philmont won't talk about it, how will less experienced scouts know what to look for?

[Col. Flagg]

Thank you. As mentioned, we are waiting to see about the eye.

 

Thank you for telling me about NT. The sister crew was from Carollton, and the ASM was a female. I believe they are Troop 121.  If I recollect correctly, you are from that area, so perhaps we are talking about the same incident.

 

I agree with your last point entirely, but I would expand it beyond Philmont, as I would with the NT incident. And it needs to come through scout resources rather than media reports. I have taken the online hazardous weather training twice and I cannot recall any significant mention of falling trees, for example, although there is talk about flash flooding. But not enough. We were in a trail camp last week where the campsites were not well marked. I could tell from the soil that significant areas of the camp had experienced flooding at some recent time. And I knew that not through any kind of training or information I learned through scouting. It would have been easy just to throw off the packs and camp there because it was flat and sandy. First thing that popped into my mind was the Ponil Canyon flood. But if Philmont won't talk about it, how will less experienced scouts know what to look for?

 

Yes the troop was from Carollton. Yes, their unit is literally 3 miles from my CO. I met the ASM. She was very nice and even looked at our troop when crossing over. She stood out because she was female and very well trained. Different district but close enough that unit paths cross often.

 

I chase storms in my copious spare time. I like to get a close to tornadoes as I can. It is a family thing because my brother and cousins all do it too (Yeah, we're those guys). So we have gone through all the NWS training offered, have done all the ARC and local CERT training possible. From my perspective the two incidents (Philmont 2013 and NT 2016) were quite different. Again, my opinion.

•  NT: The troop was hit in the middle of the night by a front of straight line winds from a gust front. In Texas we call them "Derechos". They arise from storms colliding with outflow boundaries and can travel great distances. The troop was in their proper camp site and in a remote part of the range. Even if they had known about the gust front coming in 100 miles away they would have been caught in open water and/or old growth forest. Neither good for cover. It had rained quite a bit the weeks prior to their trek, so the ground was saturated leaving the root systems of the trees susceptible to up-rooting from strong winds. The team that went in to do the assessment of the accident area said 1) there was no cover from what they were up against, 2) their option was be on the water (not good) or hunker down in place. The leaders did what they were supposed to do. Short of being evac'd out hours prior, no crew could have taken cover better.

   

• Philmont: The monsoon season was in swing. The high level mark of the Ponil Creek was visibly near the staff lodge and encompassed several of the "camp sites" allocated for the season. The camp site in question was in a field within that high water line. There were many severe storms in the area that day, especially up stream from the Ponil Canyon staff camp, but the crews were allowed to camp in what was essentially a flood zone. This was one of the wettest monsoon seasons in NM; some areas in the north getting 12" or more. IMHO Philmont and staff camps should have warned crews on the ranges of any camps in danger of flash flooding. We had three crews there that month and all crews were warned (by us) to 1) check for high water marks in any break or camp areas, and then 2) head 10 ft above those marks and camp/rest. 

Sorry for the diatribe. I just believe that if we truly train our crews/troops well (and even expect similar training at camps we attend) some situations can be avoided. Unfortunately for my friends who went to NT, there is nothing they could have done short of digging trenches like in Bastogne '44. Not sure that would have even helped.

[Stosh]

I have only 3 adult initiated rules in my boy led troop and the first one is Safety First!

 

I am currently involved with a Red Cross Relief operation where thunderstorms and flash floods hit the southern part of the state.  I was involved in Damage Assessment and flooding and tornadoes are no joke.  I visited with one lady a couple of days ago when a tree snapped off and put a large tree limb through her trailer.  Celing through to the ground.  It missed her by about 4' while she was sitting in her living room.

 

Yes freak storms happen, but my first thought for this lady was why in the world would you be sitting in the living room of your trailer house when a tornado hits? 

 

People need to have frequent conversations about such things and to ignore them puts everyone else in danger.  Tell the story, make sure everyone hears it.  I have gone through quite a few tornadoes, lightning storms and know the importance of being safe.  Peoples' lives are dependent on one's vigilance.

 

Flash floods?  One river nearby here rose to 4'  6" above floor level two blocks from the river in 7 minutes.  This is not an area prone to such activity. 

Be careful out there! Edited July 27, 2017 by Stosh

[EmberMike]

I would think that caravanning would be less necessary these days. Everyone has GPS, in the car and on their phone, so getting lost really isn't as much of an issue anymore. I'd prefer to have everyone go at their own safe pace and driving style and get there in one piece. 

 

Random side-story: When I was a kid, I remember our ASM freaking out on another leader when we got back home from a trip for not staying with the caravan in the proper order of vehicles. He got in the guy's face and screamed something about ripping his face off and feeding it to his dog. This all took place in front of the while troop and parents picking up their kids. 

[Ankylus]

Thank you. As mentioned, we are waiting to see about the eye.

 

 

I am happy to report that the most recent prognosis is that they believe the scout will keep not only the eye, but also the tear duct. A happy ending, presuming they are correct.

[EmberMike]

... He apparently won't  lose the eye, but will lose the tear duct. He's 14....that's a long time with a dry eye...

 

Good to hear he's keeping the eye and the duct. Not that it makes as much of a difference now, but doesn't the duct act as a drain? I definitely could be wrong about this, but I thought the eye gets moisture elsehere, the duct only serves to carry tears away from the eye to the nasal passages. As far as I know, lack of a tear duct wouldn't negtively impact eye moisturization.