CSP for a defunct council

[Thunderbird48]

Hello all --

 

I have searched and can find no good topics here or elsewhere dealing with this particular question, so I decided to just ask.  

 

If a party was interested in making a fund-raising set for a scout camp's upcoming anniversary (jacket patch surrounded by CSP designs), would they be allowed to use the name of a prior council on the CSPs?  This would be a private issue, not one done by the council office, and would contain the name of the council that existed when the camp was formed, which is different than the current one (due to merger).

 

Basically, I'm curious as to whether any particular rule/regulation touches on this, or if it would be up to a matter of taste.

 

Thank you all for your help.

[RememberSchiff]

@@Thunderbird48 welcome to scouter.cpm

 

 

Good question.

[CNYScouter]

Here's a link to BSA patch ordering guidelines

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/licensing/zip/PatchDesignGuidelines.pdf

 

Our council's VOA wanted to do CSP's for a fundraiser.

The idea was each crew design a CSP to go around a large VOA patch - like you see for Jamboree contingents.

 

The council (not sure who had final say) would not approve CSP's for this. The VOA could do other patches just not CSP's

 

I would think that it would be up to someone at your council to give the OK.

[scoutldr]

If the council no longer exists, who would give permission?  You would just need to avoid BSA protected trademarks.  And make sure the patches are clearly represented as reproductions.  caveat: I am not an attorney, just opinionated.

[Thunderbird48]

Thank you all for your replies so far - as you can see, it's a bit of a grey area issue.  A few points for clarification -

 

The CSPs would not be copies of the defunct council's CSPs, but rather patches with new art bearing the name of the old council.

 

As to who would give permission, I would assume it'd be the current council, since they currently control the territory once covered by the defunct council in question.  I suppose the main issue would be A) do we need the current council's permission, B) or is it just a matter of Scout spirit/courtesy?

 

Also, would it be legal to use the fleur-de-lis?  It seems to me the main issue is the fact that the patches are a CSP shape, and CSPs seem to have a bit more stringent guidelines attached to them.

 

This is all being done for our camp, and as a nod to tradition and history, but I want to do things correctly and under the proper auspices of Scouting.

 

Thanks again

[Col. Flagg]

Also, would it be legal to use the fleur-de-lis?  It seems to me the main issue is the fact that the patches are a CSP shape, and CSPs seem to have a bit more stringent guidelines attached to them.

 

There's another issue: Who's making the patches?

 

BSA only allows authorized vendors to reproduce BSA-owned logos, such as Class B (among others). So you'd have to use one of those vendors or risk, well, someone getting ticked off and sicing BSA legal on you.

[NJCubScouter]

I think your answers are in the document that CNYScouter posted a link to.

 

And welcome to the forum!

[Thunderbird48]

There's another issue: Who's making the patches?

 

BSA only allows authorized vendors to reproduce BSA-owned logos, such as Class B (among others). So you'd have to use one of those vendors or risk, well, someone getting ticked off and sicing BSA legal on you.

 

It is an official BSA vendor:  Sunshine Emblem, Inc.  The artwork has already been approved on their end.  I'm just concerned about the usage of the fleur-de-lis, since the company would only care about the content of the patches rather than the context.

[gumbymaster]

From the perspective of ownership of the name of the prior council.  If the Council's merged, then the new Council (if a new name was formed) or the surviving Council (if the old council was just absorbed), would "own" the name of the old council (all assets including intellectual property such as names, historic artwork, etc.).

[Col. Flagg]

It is an official BSA vendor:  Sunshine Emblem, Inc.  The artwork has already been approved on their end.  I'm just concerned about the usage of the fleur-de-lis, since the company would only care about the content of the patches rather than the context.

 

If they are an officially licensed BSA vendor then they can use the BSA fleur-de-lis or the purple world scout emblem. Any other original artwork using the fleur-de-lis would be okay too since the emblem is not itself trademarked. 

[Col. Flagg]

Here's another BSA logo compliance issue to be aware of.

[NJCubScouter]

As for including the fleur-de-lis, the document CNYScouter linked to says the patch MUST include one of the "BSA corporate identifiers", one of which is the "solid fleur-de-lis."  It also has specific guidelines for how the "identifier" is to be displayed.

 

It also has specific guidelines for CSP's.

 

Hopefully your "official BSA vendor" is aware of all of these requirements.

[Thunderbird48]

As for including the fleur-de-lis, the document CNYScouter linked to says the patch MUST include one of the "BSA corporate identifiers", one of which is the "solid fleur-de-lis."  It also has specific guidelines for how the "identifier" is to be displayed.

 

It also has specific guidelines for CSP's.

 

Hopefully your "official BSA vendor" is aware of all of these requirements.

 

I'm sure they're aware.

 

Thank you guys so much for your opinions and insight...I really appreciate the help!  

[Stosh]

I have another question, no opinion, just a question.

 

If one is making a CSP for a defunct council, are they planning on wearing it or just using it as a trade item?  I don't know what the official stand is on wearing a CSP.  I do know one can wear historic CSP's for their council, but in this case the council doesn't exist.

 

I wear a 1960's era historic uniform on occasion and I wear the appropriate patches for that era.  That uniform sports a community strip not a CSP.  The OA patch is historic and the name of the lodge was changed due to the sensitivity to the native American issue.  I'm not making any insensitive political statement, but it was what was worn on that uniform at that time.  It's the same lodge, just a different name.

 

Now that isn't the same as trying to wear a CSP for a council that no longer exists and never, even when they did exist, have that CSP as a historical reproduction.

 

I don't think anyone is going to throw a fit over this, but they might raise an eyebrow or two along the way.

 

I don't know for sure what the official policy is, but I would assume (and we all know where that can lead) that BSA frowns on wearing CSP's that aren't in line with the council one is registered in.

 

Just my thoughts....

[CNYScouter]

From what we were told at the VOA meeting about creating CSP's as a fundraiser was that a CSP must be able to be worn on a uniform - they can not be created for just trading.

 

From the link it says no cites/state names or unit numbers - I would like that BSA doesn't want units to create there own shoulder patches.

 

The person looking into the patches went thru our scout store (national store) and they were the ones that told the VOA that the patches needed to be approved by council