Bylaws?

[evmori]

Welcome Mrs. Smith.

 

My Troop has rules & regs. They deals with what to do with discipline problems.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[EagleInKY]

We have a "Parent's Handbook". I try to steer away from words like 'rules' & 'regulations'. The word 'policy' may sneak in their a time or two, but we try to avoid that as well.

 

Partly due to the input from these forums, I've changed the tone of our handbook. It's really about how our troop interprets and implements the eight methods. Here are some quick examples:

 

Uniform Method - We follow the uniform method as prescribed by the BSA. We expect boys to be in proper field uniform at all activities. We specify what is included in that, and when "activity uniforms" are proper. We also mention not wearing inappropriate attire (such as a t-shirt with a beer advertisement).

 

Ideals - We talk about following the Scout Oath, Law, Motto & Slogan in everything we do. When a scout doesn't, we do have a discipline policy. We talk about what takes place when a Scout doesn't live by these guidelines.

 

At the end, we do include a section about finances, gear, and the like. Since those don't really fit into the methods that well.

 

IMHO, it just makes sense to set the expectations clearly from the outset. We give parents a copy of the handbook when they visit the troop, usually during a Webelos open house.

[Eamonn]

As you can see Mrs. Smith,

Some of the forum is 100% for these bylaws, while there are others, me included that don't think that they are needed.

Last time this was discussed there were all sorts of scenarios put forward, some real and some imaginary. Some of the exchanges of ideas got hot and heavy and at the end of the day everyone seemed to be where they started.

In the District that I'm in there are troops that have Bylaws, Guide books call them what you like. These troops seem to just fine. We also have troops that don't have them and they seem to do just fine.

I am not in favor of them as I think that we deal with each situation as is needed and each Scout as an individual. I don't feel the need of a book of rules to back up my leadership. But that is just me. I hope that when a Scout is not behaving in a Scout like manner I can remind him of the Oath and Law that he has promised on his honor to uphold.Better yet is to have him remind me.

Many troops have rules to do with the property of the chartered organization, some of these have come down from the chartered organization and need to be known.

You might be able to search the net and find troop sites where they have their troop bylaws listed. As far as I know the BSA does not have such a list. There is the Guide To Safe Scouting and other BSA publications that offer guide lines and there are BSA policies that have to be followed.

As for the Popcorn scenario. If you feel that none of the other Scout Laws fit try Obedient.

[mk9750]

FOG,

 

In a return to your previous tone, you've identified a legitimate view about rules and regulations. I don't necesarily disagree with you. I think there is value in spelling things out. But it probably isn't required to abuse someone when you make your point, is it?

 

On another point, I do disagree with you about the turning the popcorn money in on time. This definitely falls under being Trustworthy, if Trustworthy includes being able to be counted upon to complete required tasks. And I think all of the other examples you made would work the same way. But it is easier, I think, to spell expectations out clearly, rather than ask people to figure out what someone means. Imagine if we said "concerning popcorn: Live by the Scout Law and be Trustworthy." People COULD figure this out, but it's certainly not as clear as "Popcorn money is due the 25th."

 

To sum up:

The Scout Oath and Law could suffice.

It's better to be more clear.

There's no need to be mean when you make your point.

 

Mark

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"As for the Popcorn scenario. If you feel that none of the other Scout Laws fit try Obedient."

 

Sorry that doesn't fit either. To be obedient, there must be rules to obey.

[Fat Old Guy]

" But it probably isn't required to abuse someone when you make your point, is it?"

 

Abuse? Who'd I abuse?

 

"On another point, I do disagree with you about the turning the popcorn money in on time. This definitely falls under being Trustworthy, if Trustworthy includes being able to be counted upon to complete required tasks."

 

How do they know what is on time unless a deadline is set?(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[MrsSmith]

What if you have a troop that is not functioning as envisioned, and more specifically, a SM and CC that seem oblivious to the Aims and Methods, much less how to implement them. (See "How to Get Rid of SM")

I can see the point of those who believe that having a Guidebook might cause problems, and also how the Scout Ideals should be enough. But ByLaws,Guidelines, whatever can also serve as a check and balance to the formation of, or at least a challenge to, an entrenched oligarchy of renegade Scouters operating with no regard for the BSA model. (say that fast three times)

In our case, I can see it being helpful in the intitial education of untrained but well-meaning parents. They could then be encouraged to explore the more official resources. Remember, we have no orientation for new parents in our troop; they are left to fend for themselves or kept in the dark until they rebel (like me).

[Fat Old Guy]

"What if you have a troop that is not functioning as envisioned, and more specifically, a SM and CC that seem oblivious to the Aims and Methods, much less how to implement them."

 

By-laws and handbooks won't help in this situation. I know too many Scouters who have been trained and trained and been through more training but yet want to run the program their way. They justify it by saying, "If we don't do it, it won't get done" or "the boys are capable of doing . . ."

 

If you have Scouters who have run amok, look to your UC or DC for help.

 

By-laws and rules help keep order in an already orderly situation. Who may check out equipment? Check the book. Do I have to replace the toilet paper in the patrol box or does the QM do that? Check the book. I lost my 1st Class badge, can I get a new one? Check the book. They won't help with "SM refuses to let SPL and PLC select activities."

[Laurie]

FOG said:

"By-laws and handbooks won't help in this situation. I know too many Scouters who have been trained and trained and been through more training but yet want to run the program their way. They justify it by saying, "If we don't do it, it won't get done" or "the boys are capable of doing . . ."

 

If you have Scouters who have run amok, look to your UC or DC for help."

 

I agree and will add one thing to the list: some say the book doesn't work and anyone who thinks so is living in an ideal world rather than the real word. Before calling the UC or DC (not a bad idea at all), please talk to the SM about your concerns. Be specific, kind, and understand that the SM often hears complaints but not always from someone willing to help out. That is frustrating! So, talk to him (or her). If things are still not right, you do have choices: call the council for the names of the UC or DC (as a parent, you certainly may--my DE tells me he often hears from parents) or look for another troop that is functioning as it should. The council offices can help you locate a new troop.

[Bob White]

Hi Mrs. Smith

 

You are to be commended for wanting to understand your son's program and for wanting it to be done according to the scouting methods.

 

I would like to address three issues you bring up. Parent orientation, the need for rules, and proper leadership.

 

First, I agree that parents need and deserve a orientation into Boy Scouting. In fact the program recommends this be done as part of a troops relationship with a pack while the families are in the Webelos program. It is a good idea to repeat it during the first month of the boy's membership in the troop. Explaining things like the troop budget, introducing leadership, discussing youth and parent responsibilities, annual program elements, uniforming and other topics can greatly enhance the scout's and the parent's comfort and participation in scouting.

 

As far as rules and by-laws, I think every one agrees they are need. Where some of the posters differ is whether rules and by-laws in addition to the ones provided by the BSA program are need or not.

 

There are some of us like Eamonn and me who feel that the best rule is KISMIF, Keep It Simple Make It Fun, is a good guide for delivering a quality scouting program. Too many scouters manufacturer too many artificial rules by which to run the program. Often these rules are made by untrained groups or individuals who knowingly or by accident create rules in direct opposition to those of the BSA. Since the BSA policies and procedures over-rule those of the local unit this becomes a waste of time and energy for everyone.

 

Other times the rules are duplicates of those already in place and available through the resources of the BSA, again a waste of time for the unit.

 

Finally these artificial rules are often an attempt by an individual or group within the unit to exert their will and designs over others. It's ego-tripping at its best and does not belong in the program.

 

The BSA has been at this for a long time and has become very familiar with what it takes to have a successful scouting program. If there is a rule needed to make that happen you can feel assured that the BSA has it already.

 

As far as the SM and CC not following the program., that is indeed unfortunate. Even sadder is that they have ample opportunity to learn and practice the scouting program and have simply chosen not to. There are a number of training programs offered for volunteers and interested parents to explain scouting and to develop leaders capable of delivering the program to youth. But the adults have to make the effort to learn it and use it.

 

If the unit were to put together a list of the scouting methods, rules and policies your SM and CC would probably not follow them, at least they haven't up to now and they have had the opportunity to do so.

 

If they were allowed to make their own they would likely not follow the program since they haven't up to now.

 

a poster in the past wisely said "if you can't get the leader to change.. then change leaders."

 

If you do not think the current SM is going to adapt to the real scouting program then for your son's sake take him to a troop that does, or go to the Charter organization and share your concern with the head of the organization. Ask them to make a change of leadership for the sake of the boys.

 

Bob White

 

 

[acco40]

Bylaws? Put me down in favor of having something down in writing with respect to some items but also being very careful not to conflict with any existing BSA policy and trying to use common sense as much as possible.

 

Take uniforms for example. The BSA guidelines are very easily understood. However, some units make their own rules such as "Troop XX considers the full uniform to consist of the BSA khaki shirt, hat and neckerchief only. Scout pants are not required." A nice policy that is dead wrong. However, many adults and boys don't realize that fact and so in our Troop "bylaws" we reiterate what constitutes a uniform. Is it redundant? Yes. Is it needed? That's debatable. My take is that it doesn't hurt.

 

Now, I like to catalog somewhere how the unit collects dues and how much they are, what night and where we generally meet, specific qualifications that he boys have decided for particular youth leadership positions, etc. These can be contained in an info guide, bylaws, or whatever one wants to call them. Personally, we have and info guide for the troop and bylaws for the committee.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

I'm not in favor of by-laws...or maybe I just don't like ours. They can be too restricting in our case it is a requirement in the by-laws to attend Brownsea training before one can become SPL...this "rule" is now hurting the troop as we have no one that wants to go to Brownsea this year and the past SPL's dont want to repeat.

[KoreaScouter]

I used to be ambivalent about by-laws, and every unit I've been with as an adult had them when I got there, tweaked them here and there, and had them when I left. I say I was ambivalent because I was very new at this, and the by-laws seemed to fill in gaps in my training and experience.

 

My opinion has evolved somewhat. I don't see the by-laws question as a false dilemma (you either have them or you don't). Rather, I look at the value of by-laws in terms of what they're accomplishing for your unit. Essentially, I don't think by-laws are neccessary to program delivery -- there's plenty of BSA guidance out there already if our unit leaders are trained on it and follow it. However, if there's a place for by-laws, I think it's on the committee side, where committees can range in size from three to however many adults you can cram in a room, and responsibilities divided accordingly. Also, I find that in general, committee members are more often "draftees" rather than volunteers, and less experienced than the SM and ASMs.

 

Most of the "what if" questions posters use to argue in favor of by-laws point to committee issues; finance, equipment accountability, paperwork, procedural stuff. Sure, there's program ties with all that stuff, since everything we're doing should be related to the program or it's a self-licking ice cream cone. But, they're essentially committee issues -- if you need by-laws to keep all that straight, Mr. committee chairman, go ahead and write by-laws. But, I don't need by-laws to tell me as an SM that SPL candidates need JLTC first, or other program planning and delivery details.

 

My current Troop has by-laws (currently under major revision by the committee). They actually said that PL candidates had to be First Class Scouts. When we had our first Troop elections after I came on board, we had a problem due to some patrol imbalances. My advice to the newly-elected SPL? Have the Scouts elect the boy who they think will do the best job; it doesn't matter what his rank is. After he got over his initial shock, that's what they did. One of the Scouts elected PL was a Tenderfoot, and although his picture probably won't be on the cover of the next PL Handbook, he worked his tail off and did okay. And, the earth didn't open and swallow me up, either.

 

KS

[VentureScoutNY]

I am in favor of having some kind of bylaws, written rules, or some kind of Troop Guide Book, especially when it comes to discipline problems. For issues that are answered by the BSA, like Uniforms for instantce, I would hope a Troop's rules reflect BSA Rules. But for unspoken rules, it would be nice to have them in writing.