Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[RememberSchiff]

Can't say that I have heard  of any scouts getting booted from the BSA or being denied Eagle because they were gay n the past year or so.

[dilrod]

 

 

Something to leave you with though are 3 photos, all 3 are some of my favourites, all were taken on a camp way back in 2011. Sometimes boys are just boys, sometimes girls want to hang with the girls and sometimes they all just end up in a big heap together. In a mixed troop they can get to do all 3.

 

Skip,  thank you for sharing these wonderful pics!

 

Regarding the article, it's one more hatchet piece by a busybody.  To his credit (if he's telling the truth), he's actually spent some time volunteering with us, but why not now?  Perhaps he could shepherd us troglodytes into 2017, and get big dollar sponsors to fork over the cash to help make the changes happen!  

 

I try to tune out these smug troublemakers.  They're the same people who show up for one meeting, look around, put their hands on  their hips and announce "I don't see any female/black/handicapped/homosexual/whatever here!"  Y'all must be sexist/racist/whateverist!!!"  Then thankfully disappear.

 

Examples:  I met a Council level Scouter last year pushing "family (coed)" Cub Scouting.  I told him I disagreed with it, but if the BSA made the change I'd follow orders.  He said to me something to the effect of "Well, if we don't, there won't be any more Cub Scouting!"  He then gave me a look like he was passing a kidney stone and marched away.

 

Years ago I was a young VFW Post Commander.  I listened to a veteran kvetch at the bar for an hour how we weren't doing this that & the other to help the vets.  I offered him an opportunity to come and do just that.  Never saw him again.

 

Go stir someone else's pot, Mr. Heternormative.

Edited June 23, 2017 by dilrod

[CalicoPenn]

There's an larger amount of people who saw Bigfoot at the Portland DMV. Does not make it a large enough ground-swell of potential members to alter a 100+ year old program. 

 

Much like the much touted supporters of allowing gay members who would join BSA, this "demand" has not materialized.

 

Since the BSA hasn't added an "are you gay" check box to their membership applications or any other official record, I would sure like to know how they could track it to either show that demand has not materialized or that it has.  That leaves the question - what would you accept as proof that the demand has materialized?  Increased numbers of Scouts?  Boy Scout numbers have been declining for years - for many different reasons - I don't think any rational person thought that opening Scouting to gay members would reverse that trend.  As NJScouter has reminded us, National views things from completely different lenses than the volunteers on the ground - and the number one lens is money.  The BSA didn't allow gay scouts and leaders because of membership numbers - they allowed them because of the very real potential loss of major dollars - I would even be so bold to suggest that they were especially worried about the loss of funds and in-kind gifts from AT&T, just as they were trying to get Bechtel Summit off the drawing board (AT&T is a major contributor to the Summit).

 

 

Allowing girls in to Cub Scouts?  They're looking to the future with 50 power binoculars while most of us are still looking at the future with 2 power opera glasses.  More and more packs, chartering organizations and parents are wanting it.  It's not a "SJW" thing (and I would appreciate it if we just nipped the whole SJW arguments in this forum in the bud right now - that's a white nationalist and white supremacist trope that we just don't need to be validating).  There are no organizations out there demanding it.  Its parents, most of whom at this point have been raised to believe that boys and girls should be treated equally and should have the same opportunities - who were raised well after SCOTUS' decision that "separate but equal" is not justice under our Constitution.  Its corporate donors, who are rapidly coming to the conclusion that supporting separate but equal entities like the BSA and GSUSA are not in keeping with their own anti-discriminatory policies.

 

It also appears that my binocular analogy may be wrong.  Given that they are also looking at the Boy Scouts program at the same time, I'm going to change it from 50 power binoculars to 150 power telescope.  It makes sense to me that if they are seriously considering opening up Cub Scouts to girls, that they would also be looking to open up Boy Scouts to girls - just from the standpoint of what happens at the end of Webelos is boys can cross over and girls cannot - what happens to the girls?  Sorry, you've had your fun but now you can't come in to the "no girls allowed" clubhouse?  How many boys do you think we'll lose from Boy Scouts in families with girls and boys in Cub Scouts?

 

Seriously, those threatening to take their ball and go home?  Why wait - go ahead and do so now - frankly, if it's not this issue, there will be something else that comes up that's going to upset you enough to want to quit.  When gays were first allowed, the BSA lost some members and units - but you know what?  The BSA is still marching along - and has been mentioned, there hasn't been any negative press about the BSA kicking our Cub Scout's mothers or denying Eagle to Boy Scouts.  A lot of units that lost chartering organizations found new ones.  If the BSA's reputation was damaged that much by that decision, how do we explain a council in Oklahoma, a very conservative state, raising $28 Million to create a high adventure base?

 

The BSA hasn't announced any policy changes yet - it's still early days - and it's still to early to panic. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by CalicoPenn

[NJCubScouter]

There's an larger amount of people who saw Bigfoot at the Portland DMV.

And you know this how, exactly?

[desertrat77]

There is a large population of girls, cub aged and 11 - 13, that want to join the BSA.  Today.

 

They don't like the GSA in any fashion.  They want to be outdoors, doing outdoor things.  And they don't want to wait till they are 14 to join Venturing.

 

The BSA is aware these enthusiastic potential recruits.  So is the GSA.  But the GSA can't and won't do anything to serve these adventurous girls.

 

Perhaps in the past coed may have been a push for PC stuff.  I don't think so any more.  Girls want to hike, climb, camp, backpack, canoe, follow map and compass.  The GSA's offerings in this department is next to zero.

 

Is the BSA just going to let these girls sit at home until they are 14?  I doubt it. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by desertrat77

[Col. Flagg]

And you know this how, exactly?

 

The same way you know of the parental demand for coed Scouting or that any movements aren't behind the pressure on BSA in the last 10 years.

[Col. Flagg]

 

Is the BSA just going to let these girls sit at home until they are 14?  I doubt it. 

 

They don't have to. They can retool Venturing and allow the girls to join at 11. Done. Boy Scouts stays Boy Scouts.

[desertrat77]

They don't have to. They can retool Venturing and allow the girls to join at 11. Done. Boy Scouts stays Boy Scouts.

Fair enough.  But what about those cub aged girls?   It's an easy sell to parents:  "One stop scouting for your sons and daughters!" 

 

No more complaining from daughters about how lame the GSA is and how unfair it is the cubs get to do all of the cool stuff.  One meeting location.  One organization the whole family can be a part of.

 

The one-scouting-organization-for-the-entire family is quite a selling point.  And I'm sure National is also thinking of the business angle:  more uniform sales, increased membership, more adult volunteers, etc.

[NJCubScouter]

The same way you know of the parental demand for coed Scouting or that any movements aren't behind the pressure on BSA in the last 10 years.

I know about it from reading this forum and seeing people post about what they are already doing on a local basis - in some cases having a coed unit "unofficially" and/or using "tricks" like registering girls as LFL members. I really don't think these people are doing this because someone was carrying a protest sign somewhere. They are doing it because that's what they want for their children. That doesn't necessarily mean they should be able to do it or that what they are doing should necessarily be "legalized" and made part of the official program. But it does show there is some level of demand.

 

What I am saying about "movements" and "pressure" is that they are irrelevant in this case. They are not why the BSA is considering what it is considering. And yes, that's an opinion, but it's based on what I am seeing.

[Col. Flagg]

What I am saying about "movements" and "pressure" is that they are irrelevant in this case. They are not why the BSA is considering what it is considering. And yes, that's an opinion, but it's based on what I am seeing.

 

As is my opinion. But that's usually what opinions are based on.

[Col. Flagg]

Fair enough.  But what about those cub aged girls?   It's an easy sell to parents:  "One stop scouting for your sons and daughters!" 

 

No more complaining from daughters about how lame the GSA is and how unfair it is the cubs get to do all of the cool stuff.  One meeting location.  One organization the whole family can be a part of.

 

The one-scouting-organization-for-the-entire family is quite a selling point.  And I'm sure National is also thinking of the business angle:  more uniform sales, increased membership, more adult volunteers, etc.

 

Cubs is more complex and I would not want to simply open CS to girls for the same reason I would not want to open Boy Scouts to girls.

 

Maybe the answer to CS is to develop a cub-style program for Venturing. You'd create a program that is less fragmented than CS2BS and still allow CS and BS to keep what makes them special (single sex learning environment).

[desertrat77]

Cubs is more complex and I would not want to simply open CS to girls for the same reason I would not want to open Boy Scouts to girls.

 

Maybe the answer to CS is to develop a cub-style program for Venturing. You'd create a program that is less fragmented than CS2BS and still allow CS and BS to keep what makes them special (single sex learning environment).

Colonel, I'm tracking with you, but two things keep coming to mind:

 

- What does single-gender scouting say about young American males today?  That they can't handle a coed environment?  That the boys in America have issues that aren't typically found in another country that does coed scouting?

 

- Is traditional cub and boy scouting doing so well that we don't dare break a successful business model? 

[NJCubScouter]

Maybe the answer to CS is to develop a cub-style program for Venturing. You'd create a program that is less fragmented than CS2BS and still allow CS and BS to keep what makes them special (single sex lor earning environment).

This may be mostly a matter of semantics, since this is all going to be a matter of local option anyway. (Or so the BSA currently says.) In theory, a CO could have an all-boy Cub pack, a coed pack and an all-girl pack. That being the case, I'm not sure how much it matters whether you call it "Cub Scouting" or "Younger Venturing" or whatever else. (Obviously the terminology could get pretty confusing when it gets to an all-girl "Boy" Scout troop, but one of the slides that was linked from a previous thread hinted that they would come up with a new name for that.)

[Gwaihir]

Colonel, I'm tracking with you, but two things keep coming to mind:

 

- What does single-gender scouting say about young American males today?  That they can't handle a coed environment?  That the boys in America have issues that aren't typically found in another country that does coed scouting?

 

- Is traditional cub and boy scouting doing so well that we don't dare break a successful business model? 

 

1. This is a silly straw-man argument.  Of course they can "handle" co-ed environments, they literally do that in every single other endeavour they are a part of with the exception of sports.  This isn't about "not handling it", this is about boys (like girls) thriving in both learning as well as character development when in same-sex environments during their formative years.  The girl scouts tout this as a bedrock of their programs.  Conversely, why is the argument against sports never "what's the matter boys, can't handle being in a co-ed environment?" it's not, because it's a ridiculous argument. 

 

2. You can't keep tinkering with something, shaving, cutting, clipping, tweaking, and then when the thing starts to fall apart say "SEEE!!! IT WAS BROKEN ALL ALONG!!"  That's the argument against the diluting the Boy and Cub Scout programs. 

[walk in the woods]

Colonel, I'm tracking with you, but two things keep coming to mind:

 

- What does single-gender scouting say about young American males today?  That they can't handle a coed environment?  That the boys in America have issues that aren't typically found in another country that does coed scouting?

Maybe it says as a society we recognize that there is value in single-gender programs for developing healthy and happy boys, which leads to healthy and happy men, which is ultimately good for society.  Just because a boy and his parent(s) prefer a single-gender program doesn't imply the boy can't handle a coed environment, it just implies the family found more value in the single-gender option in that case.  It also doesn't imply there's less value in a coed program for different families to find a different value proposition.  

 

I was getting what's left of my hair cut last weekend.  To make conversation, the young lady asked what I was doing afterwards.  I told her I was headed to a scouting event.  She mentioned she was a single mom and was considering scouting for her young son because she wanted positive male role models in his life since dad wasn't in the picture.  There is value in men mentoring boys in an all-male environment where those young men can be themselves.