Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[TAHAWK]

"Parallel program"....excuse me if I am mistaken, but I thought we had already decided in this country that "separate but equal" is "inherently unequal". I believe that. I do not think you can successfully have a "parallel program". Which means they won't have any choice but to abandon the decision to admit girls or to fully integrate. And many units will go straight to full integration for the reasons set forth above...not enough volunteers, not enough resources, easier to plan program, etc. "Parallel program" is just proponents trying to have their cake and eat it too.

The BSA is not a public accommodation or branch of any government.  So, like many others, it can offer separate programs by sex - as BSA has done for many years.

[Col. Flagg]

The BSA is not a public accommodation or branch of any government.  So, like many others, it can offer separate programs by sex - as BSA has done for many years.

We could also have kept our old membership policy without penalty but looked what happened there.

[EmberMike]

...The world has changed and will continue to change.  What BP envisioned 100+ years ago is gone and will not come back until needed once more.  I can wait.

 

 

What BP envisioned 100+ years ago was gone 40 years ago. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by EmberMike

[TAHAWK]

Obviously, legal requirements and the perceived need for corporate financial support are different issues.

[NJCubScouter]

The BSA is not a public accommodation or branch of any government.  So, like many others, it can offer separate programs by sex - as BSA has done for many years.

 

Not to mention, and I should have put this in my previous post about private schools:  Haven't the Boy Scouts and the Campfire Girls (before it went "coed"), and the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts, been "separate but equal" programs for many years?  And still is, in the case of Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts?  (I can already hear the response, that GSUSA does not offer a program "equal" to the BSA.  First of all, on a national basis it offers a fairly equal program, but too many local leaders do not have their troops participate in most of the outdoor activities available.  Second, the distinction would matter only if "separate but equal" (as the BSA programs would be) is WORSE than separate and unequal (as the current GSUSA/BSA separation arguably is.  And surely nobody would argue that equal is worse than unequal.)

Edited August 16, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Gwaihir]

And yet there have been boys-only and girls-only private schools all along.  There aren't as many now as there used to be, but they still exist.

 

and they're celebrated by their community as well. 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/atlanta-students-surprised-cheers-encouragement-1st-day-school/story?id=49133871

[Hawkwin]

 I can easily see the Boy Scouts of America going co-ed and changing their market name to Scouting USA.  If it were to go co-ed, I would hope that the BSA would be wise enough to make co-ed scouting a chartering organization option - if an organization wants to sponsor a boys only Cub Scout and Boy Scout program, another a co-ed program, and another a girls only program, where is the harm to Scouting?  People will make their choices - let the market decide.  If you as a leader want to only work with a boy-only unit, you'll have that option - why should you care if the Troop down the street, or the Troop in the next campsite down at summer camp has girls?  Just about everything folks have mentioned as being a potential problem can be solved - the only thing I can think of that might be a real fear is that folks who want a single-sex program would have to compete for Scouts with another Troop in their town that is a co-ed group - and they might lose.

 

This!

[Col. Flagg]

This!

Saying "this" and making "this" happen is the difference between talking about the moon and going to it.

 

BSA has a lousy track record for implementing successful membership programs. To continue the analogy, BSA sound great in the planetarium but can't find a constellation in the real night sky.

[Hawkwin]

Saying "this" and making "this" happen is the difference between talking about the moon and going to it.

 

BSA has a lousy track record for implementing successful membership programs. To continue the analogy, BSA sound great in the planetarium but can't find a constellation in the real night sky.

 

 

*Chuckle* Perhaps you should have said Mars instead of the moon since we found a way to go to the moon.

 

The beauty of this change is that BSA would not have to implement anything - simply leave it up to the council and individual chartering organizations. More difficult to mess something up if you delegate the authority. To continue your space analogy, the failures of SpaceX are not directly the fault of NASA.

 

Edit: I would also add that failure is always an option and the potential for failure should not be a cause for us to avoid change. A good life lesson for all scouts.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Hawkwin

[Col. Flagg]

You're forgetting all the scouts and scouters that would leave because of this change. BSA still hasn't corrected the increase in memebership decline from their last two policy changes. Think this will be any different?

[Hawkwin]

You're forgetting all the scouts and scouters that would leave because of this change. BSA still hasn't corrected the increase in memebership decline from their last two policy changes. Think this will be any different?

 

No, not forgetting, I simply disagree with your assumption that more boys would leave over the inclusion of girls than girls that would join.

[TAHAWK]

A properly-run organization would research to discover if customers and prospective customers would react favorably to major changes in the product line.

 

I have never seen evidence that the "professionals" at National Council have done this in the past forty-five years.  The contrary seems to be true.

 

I am, or course, interested in any documentation showing that such research has been or is being done.  Not claims - documentation.

[Hawkwin]

A properly-run organization would research to discover if customers and prospective customers would react favorably to major changes in the product line.

 

I have never seen evidence that the "professionals" at National Council have done this in the past forty-five years.  The contrary seems to be true.

 

I am, or course, interested in any documentation showing that such research has been or is being done.  Not claims - documentation.

 

On that we are in agreement - but I imagine such research, typically performed by random survey, would have a significant margin of error. If we look at other polling/surveys of what people think they will do at some point in the future based on a policy that has yet to be implemented, the results are often significantly different than reality.

 

Additionally, such a survey would have to include both current members (youth - which surveying is problematic), parents, adult leaders, and everyone that might join due to the change. That is a pretty big poll of survey recipients.

 

I am not sure that such results would be probative either way.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hawkwin

[Eagle1993]

The previous changes were forced through due to massive outside pressure. I can tell you that my corporate (DOW listed company) LGBTQ affinity group would have ensured no facility or funding would have been given to BSA. If the policy didn't change, I expect that even listing Eagle Scout on your resume could have be a blemish if not a sign to screen it out. BSA would have been viewed in the same light as a race based organization.

 

My point above is to not debate our previous policy changes but to emphasize that adding girls is not being driven by outside groups (for the most part). I haven't heard threats of funding being pulled and nothing from our women's affinity groups.

 

Therefore, this is clearly is being looked at solely as a plan to increase membership. First impact that must be considered is our LDS scouts. They are a massive percent of BSA membership and I am sure the BSA already knows their plans. They are either planning to stay after adding girls or have already decided to leave. I don't believe adding girls would offset LDS loss, and since the BSA is investigating this change I don't believe LDS would leave as a result of adding girls (my guess). If that is the case, I tend hope BSA did do the studies that show membership increase. Hopefully they are accurate

[Eagledad]

The BSA was loosing membership even before the recent membership policy changes as a result of a program structure that makes managing a unit challenging for volunteers. I have said many times that the sensible way to work the problem is fix the internal issues first. OK, that doesn't seem to be the path National is taking. So, in my mind, bringing girls (family) into the program is like the Titanic taking on more passengers with baling buckets. Even in the best case scenario, the girls membership will eventually level out leaving the program with the same internal problems that is causing the present membership to leave. In other words, bringing in girls to save the program is only a temporary solution.

 

Barry

Edited August 24, 2017 by Eagledad