Question about a boy

[Senior_Patrol_Leader_T15]

There is this boy in my Troop (11 yrs old), and he is going up for his Second Class BOR. He has been in the Troop for only 5 months. Many of the other kids don't really think he knows what he should to be a Second Class. Some think he is moving too fast. Now I'm not one to be picking moving too fast, becasue since you all know I moved pretty fast to Eagle Candidate for 14 yrs. old. But, lately, he has been being a nusience to everyone and he does seem that he mearly memorized what he needed to get signed off.

 

I wish I wasn't so blind sighted before. Now he's going up for the BOR. As you know, ours up to First Class are youth ran. Me, the JASM, and the Instructor are on the BOR. From looking at his actions and skills, we don't think he deserves it yet. Please give me so insight, you guys haven't let me down with good advise yet.

[LovetoCamp]

If he's memorized and performed all the requirements, that ought to be a slam dunk on his part, wouldn't you agree?

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the joy of making judgment calls and having gut-checks.

 

I think the Scouting expectation is a Scout should take about a year to get from "first meeting" to First Class. This Tenderfoot is advancing a little early, but not too much so.

 

Use this Scouts' advancement to your advantage as the youth leader of the Troop: Gather the PLC along with the older youth leaders (JASM and Instructors), and ask for SM for a seminar PLC on how to set and enforce standards. You may even want to make a leaders campout/retreat out of this, so that everyone has "their head in the game."

 

***The onus of evaluating task performance TO THE STANDARD is at least as much on the the teacher/evaluator as it is on the student.***

 

Now, as to the Tenderfoot...

Ask him "open-ended" questions. Below are examples. Target the questions to the skill or knowledge you believe needs strengthening:

 

"How do you apply the fourth point of the Scout Law (friendly) in your troop life and family life?"

 

"What to you goes into "mentally awake?"

 

"How difficult was your swim?" FOLLOWUP: How much work is it going to take you to be ready for your First Class swim test when we get to camp?"

 

"What did you make for your camp breakfast?" FOLLOWUP "How would you improve on what you did the next time you make a field breakfast?"

 

"What position of responsibility in the troop appeals to you and why?"

FOLLOWUP "If I ask the SM to assign you that position next week, what do you think you would need to learn through training to be able to do the job right?"

 

Remember: You and your brother leaders have had your opportunity to test skills!! Your Scoutmaster has declared this Tenderfoot ready for advancement. The goal is NOT to put a "gotcha" on the young man ... it's to help you assess his strengths and weaknesses so you can train him on First Class skills.

 

I hope all this helps.

 

John

who was in your shoes more years ago than I care to remember...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[KoreaScouter]

SPLT15;

 

Your predicament is what we in the armed forces call a "self-inflicted wound". If I understand your unit, the youth leaders do the bulk of the hands-on skill instruction, and sign off the requirements, and then conduct the BOR. In other words, the same bunch of people are conducting the "Scout learns, Scout is tested, Scout is reviewed" cycle. There are good reasons why BORs are intended to be conducted by committee members; this is one. You say he's a nuisance -- that can mean just about anything, but it's safe to say it's not complimentary and certainly not Scoutlike on at least one of the 12 points of the Scout Law...yet, someone signed him off on Scout Spirit. That's not memorization, you either show it through your actions or you don't.

 

The Scoutmaster conference should have been an opportunity, perhaps the last opportunity, to apply a sanity check. What happened?

 

My advice is in two parts, and you're free to take it or leave it. First, suck this one up, and be a little more careful in the future regarding signing off advancement requirements. Fortunately, you get another chance to do it right with him, since he now gets to work on First Class advancement, which includes "show Scout Spirit". Don't screw it up again. Second, follow the BSA program as it was designed. Have the committee conduct Tenderfoot through Life BORs like they're supposed to, and you won't have to wring your hands over this. Moreover, you'll have more time and energy to devote to being an SPL -- that's a big enough job without taking on committee responsibilities too.

 

You may be comfortable overall with your current practice, and in my experience, most people, even when they ask for advice, are only willing to follow it if it affirms what they already believe or do. I have no idea whether or not that's the case with you, since I don't know you. But, what I do know is that to whatever extent you get creative with and deviate from the program design, it's a virtual certainty you'll create situations, like this one, that call for still more creativity and deviation. If you're going to do the former, you'd better be prepared to do the latter, too.

 

Good luck; this, too can provide "personal growth" and "leadership development" for you, albeit in an unintended way.

 

KS

 

[John-in-KC]

KS...

 

I think you and I once fired into the same impact area!!!

 

I wish one of the two of us could facilitate this SPL an After-Action Review...

 

John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ozemu]

Similar to KS but without the BSA rules.

 

If you have already signed of on the individual requirments then you may be compelled to letting this one through. This may be unpleasent.

 

On the upside Second class is commendable but not exactly worth you dying in its defence.

 

We all make mistakes. You did in getting to this position. He did in paying lip service to the standards.

 

You will pay for your mistake by denting your pride in unit (and some gnashing of teeth perhaps). He will pay for his by being very closely observed while earning the next rank.

 

Please remember that he is 11. Most 11 year olds are a nuisance, struggle to live the oath and promise, are overly impressed by rank, recognise form over substance etc. Maybe he needs a chat? Has anyone told him that Scout spirit is a behaviour not a fact? That we must live the oath every day and not just once for the BOR?

[frank10]

The only way to clean up the mess is to turn it over to the committee before you do any more damage. Ter is a reason the SM is not invited to BOR's, even more so not to invite youth members!

 

My only question is are you looking to do the right thing or are you looking for us to tell you it's ok to do it your way?

[LovetoCamp]

What is this highly motivated 11 year old doing wrong? Isn't "First Class, first year" a goal for everybody? How else does one pass a test without memorizing the subject matter? Are you older boys letting his being a nuisance cloud your judgement over him completing the requirements. If scouts can join at 10 1/2 years old, and are put in a NSP where First Class first year is the goal, how old will they be then? I wish I had some Sea Scouts with some more motivation towards advancement.

[OldGreyEagle]

You know, Youth are not supposed to be doing Board of Reviews in the first place so this question is a moot point and continued discussion on what SPL_15 should do is superfluos.

 

SPL_15, you cannot be responsible for the advancement of a scout, it is not you responsibility, right, privelige or any thing else I can think of. You are now an Eagle Scout, its time to uphold the BSA or quit calling yourself a Boy Scout.

[LovetoCamp]

Check!!!

[AggieScouter]

Our BOR's are designed to see if the program is serving the scouts. If a scout is up for a BOR, the Scoutmaster has stipulated that the scout has met the requirements. Our job on the BOR is to see if this is true. It is a review of the program, specifically the Scoutmaster. This is what the Committee is for. It is not a youth function to judge the Scoutmaster. This is why BSA states that only Committee mebers should be on BOR's.

[John-in-KC]

OGE,

 

It's NOT a moot point, yet. The young man described the practice current in his unit. We here don't know how long this practice has been going on.

 

SPL_15 SHOULD visit with his SM and CC and admit error. That's going to take no small amount of moral courage. I hope he does it.

 

In the meantime, we've pointed him down a trail of how he can raise the STANDARDS of the older youth. You will recall he described that youth leadership signs off on the individual tasks to rank.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[dan]

When I read SPLT15 post I had another take on it, than the other posters. When he wrote that this scout is a nuisance, I took it to mean that he is pushing for advancements, is that what you mean by a nuisance? If it is, this is a good thing, do not hold a scout back because he wants to advance that will only unmotivate him.

 

For the other issue, we have discussed this with SPLT15 before.

I do not believe that Scouts should not be on the BOR for the same reason that SM and ASM should not be.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry John in KC, offering advice on a practice that is against standard BSA policy does no one any good. SPL15 has been told before that the practice of youth run Board of Reviews is not appropriate. To ask an opinion on a practice that is known to wrong is, well, just wrong. SPL15, you know I like you, but this is not right.

[SR540Beaver]

I second Dan's motion. It is open for interpretation until SPLT15 comes back and provides more detail. I'm also wondering if the nuisance comment does not mean a highly motivated boy who keeps bugging the boy leadership to test him. I got a little irritated at our last Troop meeting. My son is working on Tenderfoot. He has been working on knots during their skill session and he has been working on knots at home using a book for reference. Our ASPL is his Troop Guide. My son had a length of rope in his pocket and forgot about it until after the meeting. They had not worked on knots that night, but he cam e prepared. The SPL and ASPL were still there after the meeting shooting the breeze. I urged him to go back in and ask if he could demonstrate the knots he needed to tie. He walked up to them and waited, not wanting to interrupt. I was standing about 20 feet away and watching. They never once acknowledged him in over 5 minutes, even though he was the only other person in the room, standing 3 feet away and looking right at them. Then the SM appeared and ran us all out so he could lock up. I don't know, but I'm assuming that these two boys who are around 15 and 17 saw this 11 year old as a nuisance too, even though he was obviously waiting quietly and patiently to speak to them. While he would have liked to get a couple of items marked off, it was not too big a deal to him as he knew he would have another chance the next week. If he is blown off again, this ASM will talk to the SM about having our boy leaders make themselves accessable to the new boys.