ghjim Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 If the 'local option' was pulled than my United Methodist Church CO (which leans slightly right of center) would likely 'decline' sponsoring us. I get tired of arguing the BSA "God" requirement as it is such a weak, wishy washy demand very close to a 12 step "belief in a higher power". Really I have known at least half a dozen scouts who were atheist and did not hide it (all in church CO units) where it was not even a speed bump on the way to Eagle. So Tampa, you are saying that the DRP is only minimally enforced? Although I have not been a BSA member for a long time, it seems to me that this varies from CO to CO. It looks to me that some are enforcing it very rigidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) So Tampa, you are saying that the DRP is only minimally enforced? Although I have not been a BSA member for a long time, it seems to me that this varies from CO to CO. It looks to me that some are enforcing it very rigidly. This should probably be in a different thread, but what do you mean by "enforcing" it? What would a unit/CO do to "enforce" the DRP? Are you talking about grace before meals, or prayers in opening/closing ceremonies, or something else? Edited May 23, 2017 by NJCubScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 But the USA is at a different point along that road than other countries. Compared to the UK the USA is far more politically conservative. I wonder what "politically conservative" means. Is it pressure to conform? If that's the case then Japan and Sweden are much more conservative than the US. Is it religious participation? If so, look at Africa or India or most of South America, they are much more devout. Or maybe conservative is that people stay in their social band. When was it that the UK finally got rid of the hereditary members in the House of Lords? How about acceptance of immigrants? I saw some political ads in Berlin last year that were rather blunt in their condemnation of Turks. This is what, 2 or 3 generations after they were first invited to Germany? In the news today I read that 2 men were caned in Indonesia for having gay sex. What about a country like Russia, where state propaganda has made a free press a joke? Is Russia considered conservative? And yet, all these countries have coed scouts. Maybe it's something else. The US certainly has its issues but I've seen enough of the world to know that most people, all over the world, want the same things. They might be used to different cultures so their approach to getting those things might differ, but they all want the same things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridgeskip Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I wonder what "politically conservative" means. Is it pressure to conform? If that's the case then Japan and Sweden are much more conservative than the US. Is it religious participation? If so, look at Africa or India or most of South America, they are much more devout. Or maybe conservative is that people stay in their social band. When was it that the UK finally got rid of the hereditary members in the House of Lords? How about acceptance of immigrants? I saw some political ads in Berlin last year that were rather blunt in their condemnation of Turks. This is what, 2 or 3 generations after they were first invited to Germany? In the news today I read that 2 men were caned in Indonesia for having gay sex. What about a country like Russia, where state propaganda has made a free press a joke? Is Russia considered conservative? And yet, all these countries have coed scouts. Maybe it's something else. The US certainly has its issues but I've seen enough of the world to know that most people, all over the world, want the same things. They might be used to different cultures so their approach to getting those things might differ, but they all want the same things. To be clear I wasn't equating poltical conservatism directly with not being coed. The point was more as an example of cultural difference between our respective countries hence one shouldn't assume that where one goes the other will closely follow. One thing that always strikes me about the USA is it's extraordinary diversity in pretty much every respect. From climate to geography to religions to music to ethnic background and pretty much every other aspect of life. It's something that I think other countries can learn something from in terms of how different communities live alongside each other. But I would also speculate whether that leads to difficulties when it comes to changes. If you have to get that massively diverse population to all agree and pull in the same direction you are going to have to work at it. Just a thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 . If you have to get that massively diverse population to all agree and pull in the same direction you are going to have to work at it. Just a thought. Actually, I don't know that it's all that difficult. The local option is a decent example of how to get people pulling in the same direction. The BSA should simply give organizations a goal (support and develop leadership and independence in youth), the freedom to execute against that goal (pick your own leaders and the youth you want to work with to meet your organizations goals), a basic framework to use, and get the hell out of the way. It's only a problem when the powers that be want to tell people what to do AND how to do it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 If you have to get that massively diverse population to all agree and pull in the same direction you are going to have to work at it. Well, it forces us to find middle ground, unless you are on the left. Then you just play the (insert liberal issue) card, scream, whine, protest and make stuff up and say that the other person is oppressing you. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Actually, I don't know that it's all that difficult. The local option is a decent example of how to get people pulling in the same direction. Well, it should be, but it took a lot of time and conflict and struggle to get to that point, on the issue of openly gay leaders. And obviously there are people in Scouting (in this forum and elsewhere) who think it was a bad move. My prediction at the time was that some would leave the BSA but that most of those opposed to the change would learn to live with it. Maybe that's the best that can be hoped for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwest09 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Well, it forces us to find middle ground, unless you are on the left. Then you just play the (insert liberal issue) card, scream, whine, protest and make stuff up and say that the other person is oppressing you. My friend - none of that is at all unique to liberals (as is self-evident just in your one post). Its more a trait of people unwilling or unable to debate an argument on its fact and merits, and instead turn to emotionally-charged rhetoric. Probably because its easier and more fun to sling mud, trade insults, and "debate" in terms of memes and one-liners, than to actually dig into the meat of any given issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuctTape Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) deleted... Edited May 23, 2017 by DuctTape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Unfortunately in our competitive society, winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. There's always the skeptic (either side of the argument) that won't accept facts. Given the proper spin, both sides feel they win, when in fact they both lose. Edited May 23, 2017 by Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Unfortunately in our competitive society, winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. There's always the skeptic (either side of the argument) that won't accept facts. Given the proper spin, both sides feel they win, when in fact they both lose. If you feel that way, then the local option should be seen as a positive thing. My unit or my CO or my religion can't tell your unit who it can and can't have as a leader, and vice versa. Live and let live. Nobody wins, nobody loses, but we all co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 My friend - none of that is at all unique to liberals (as is self-evident just in your one post). Its more a trait of people unwilling or unable to debate an argument on its fact and merits, and instead turn to emotionally-charged rhetoric. Probably because its easier and more fun to sling mud, trade insults, and "debate" in terms of memes and one-liners, than to actually dig into the meat of any given issue. While making stuff up is not unique to the left, the vitriol with which it is espoused is. I don't recall 8 years of people calling Obama a Nazi or a state party leader openly saying (on TV no less), $%#* Obama. So there is that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Ok, this thread is about Scouting, can we please keep it there? If you want to start a thread about past and current presidents, go right ahead but remember the Scout Oath and Law applies there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Flagg Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Ok, this thread is about Scouting, can we please keep it there? If you want to start a thread about past and current presidents, go right ahead but remember the Scout Oath and Law applies there too. I thought I&P was where non-Scouting issues went for debate, no? Not sure I broke the law or oath in my post either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I thought I&P was where non-Scouting issues went for debate, no? The current policy of this forum is that both Scouting-related "issues and politics" and non-Scouting-related "issues and politics" can be discussed in this section (although a thread that starts out Scouting-related really should be kept that way.) But that does not necessarily mean that the entire craziness of what currently passes for "political discourse" in this country should be welcome in this forum. There are thousands of forums on the Internet where discussions take place that are not appropriate in this forum. As far as I know, nobody has called the current president a "Nazi" in THIS forum. And as far as I know, nobody has said (bleep) Trump in THIS forum. So there is no need to respond to those things in THIS forum. And those are only examples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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