is it time?

[tyke]

interesting article asks some good questions. Could the BSA give up the ban on the 3 G''s ?

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opinion/the-boy-scouts-can-do-a-good-turn-finally.html?_r=0&referer=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

[mashmaster]

Grabbing some popcorn for this thread....

[Stosh]

Yep, we have a ton of speculation already, adding more will only heighten the drama.

 

I have sent two years of retirement already speculating more camp time with the Mrs.  Planning the possibility of the whole month of August in Alaska.  Does that mean one needs to speculate I may be dropping out of Scouting?  Check your Ouija board for updates.

[qwazse]

... I may be dropping out of Scouting? ...

I may be dropping scouts over a climbing tower tonight ...

Does that mean BSA will drop it's oldest membership restriction?

(One non-sequiter deserves another.)

 

FWIW, @@tyke, I was driving to the next county over to help Mrs. Q put gem settings on a shelf (long story) today. The usual national public radio (equivalent to your BBC) talk show I listened to was out of range, and the nearest station was beginning an interview with a boy scout leader whose troop operates out of a conservative CO, and the founder of American Heritage Girls. The salient part of the dialogue for this host was that

• the Boy Scout Leader's CO still had the right to select leaders as it saw fit so that from their local perspective, the status quo could be maintained -- this was seen as a good thing.
• Meanwhile while a GS mom - she learned that there is no local control of who may lead a girl scout group and the removal of duty to God from their oath and the general progressive endeavor of the organization beyond the scrutiny of the rank and file -- this was seen as a bad thing.  In contrast, the host had great enthusasim for AHG's attempt to restore a more theistic role (a pro-life feminism, if you will).

Sorry, but the station went out of range before the interview ended I could get the call sign; otherwise, I would have asked if they had a transcript to share.

 

Point is, the part of the country that elected our current president has no inclination to move into the fast lane for the little activists in the back of the car screaming "are we there yet?"

[Gwaihir]

let's beat this horse until it's bones turn to chalk dust.... 

The Boy Scouts serves the needs of boys, boys who have been left behind over the last 20 years... languishing in academics, with lower college graduation rates, higher high school drop out rates, higher rates of incarceration... and a general societal penalization for being boys.  (more aggressive, more competitive, more rambunctious, more noisy, etc...).  Leave Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts alone.  There are plenty of programs out there for those looking for options.   

It seems BP's quote is as relevant now as it was when he said it... 

"There are thousands of boys being wasted daily to our country through being left to become characterless, and, therefore, useless wasters, a misery to themselves and an eyesore and a danger to the nation. They could be saved if only the right surroundings or environment were given to them at the receptive time of their lives."

 

my .02

[Stosh]

@Gwaihir  unless you're speculating, guessing, theorizing, or tossing in contradictory vague statements, it has no business being posted in I&P!   

[Stosh]

@Gwaihir  unless you're speculating, guessing, theorizing, or tossing in contradictory vague statements, it has no business being posted in I&P! 

 

Oh, and by the way, your statement makes too much sense, too!

[NJCubScouter]

This opinion column by James Dale does mention the "girls" and "godless" issues, but it only mentions them once, in passing, and I guess he does imply that he thinks those policies should change, but the column isn't really about that.  It is about the fact that he opposes the BSA's current local-option policies on openly gay adult leaders.  He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I disagree. I support the current policy on that subject.  Dale also thinks that the recent action by the LDS Church makes it more likely that the local-option policy will be abandoned in favor of a policy requiring acceptance of openly gay leaders in all units.  On this point he makes several factual and logical errors.  For one thing, in light of the discussion in the thread on the recent announcement, it is questionable how much impact this will have on the BSA, in any direction.  Even if the LDS Church did eventually dis-affiliate with the BSA someday, I think that would make the chances of the BSA adopting the policy favored by Dale less likely, not more.

[Saltface]

This opinion column by James Dale does mention the "girls" and "godless" issues, but it only mentions them once, in passing, and I guess he does imply that he thinks those policies should change, but the column isn't really about that.  It is about the fact that he opposes the BSA's current local-option policies on openly gay adult leaders.  He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I disagree. I support the current policy on that subject.  Dale also thinks that the recent action by the LDS Church makes it more likely that the local-option policy will be abandoned in favor of a policy requiring acceptance of openly gay leaders in all units.  On this point he makes several factual and logical errors.  For one thing, in light of the discussion in the thread on the recent announcement, it is questionable how much impact this will have on the BSA, in any direction.  Even if the LDS Church did eventually dis-affiliate with the BSA someday, I think that would make the chances of the BSA adopting the policy favored by Dale less likely, not more.

 

Why less likely?

[Col. Flagg]

If they get rid of the local option, that sound you hear will be BSA's membership number plummeting beyond one million total.

[NJCubScouter]

I don't know what the numbers are now, but I agree with you that there would be substantial loss of CO's and membership if they dropped the local option.  Local option is really the only way to go.  I was advocating for it in this forum for more than 10 years before they did it.  It is also what my council's SE, and I believe most of the other councils in the Northeast, were advocating for in 2013/2015.  Conversely, very few (if any) people INSIDE the BSA think that units with religious CO's should be required to accept openly gay leaders if it goes against their beliefs.  For that reason, I see no chance of it happening.

[NJCubScouter]

Why less likely?

 

This is all hypothetical of course because it assumes that the LDS drops the Boy Scout and Cub Scout programs at some point in the future.  If that were to happen, I think the BSA would be so concerned that other major religious CO's (such as the Roman Catholic Church) might also withdraw that the BSA would not want to impose MORE requirements on those CO's that the CO's would be unhappy with.  I think they would leave the policy as it is.  I also think James Dale incorrectly assumes that the sole reason the BSA did not adopt the policy that he favors (no exclusion by any CO) is pressure from the LDS Church.  I do not believe that is the case.  I don't think there was ever any way the BSA would adopt the policy he favors, with or without the LDS Church.

Edited May 22, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Col. Flagg]

I don't know what the numbers are now, but I agree with you that there would be substantial loss of CO's and membership if they dropped the local option. 

 

>2.2 million across all programs, but that's before the adjust downward as they always do in August...or for the losses they will pick up after the LDS pull out.

[Tampa Turtle]

If the 'local option' was pulled than my United Methodist Church CO (which leans slightly right of center) would likely 'decline' sponsoring us. I get tired of arguing the BSA "God" requirement as it is such a weak, wishy washy demand very close to a 12 step "belief in a higher power". Really I have known at least half a dozen scouts who were atheist and did not hide it (all in church CO units) where it was not even a speed bump on the way to Eagle.

[Cambridgeskip]

Just catching up with this.

 

I think that Tyke, with all due respect, has made a common mistake among many of our country men make which is to assume that because the UK and USA share a language that we are closer culturally than we actually are. Fact is that the UK is closer to other countries in north west Europe than anywhere else. The Netherlands, Germany and in particular Denmark than any other English speaking countries with the possible exception of Australia.

 

I suspect that at some point, probably in my life time, BSA will change with regard to girls and religion but I certainly don't expect it to be yet simply because that is the way the western world is going and the USA is no different. But the USA is at a different point along that road than other countries. Compared to the UK the USA is far more politically conservative. Many people equate the democrats with our Labour Party. Actually they are better compared to the liberal wing of the Conservative party. Similarly religion plays a much bigger role in the USA than the U.K.. That's just the way it is.

 

That said I suspect the 2019 world jamboree will have a big influence on BSA. An awful lot of scouts from a lot of countries will be turning up. They will influence the attitudes of both those at the jamboree itself and those communities hosting units on home hospitality visits. I don't think you can have that volume of cultural influences in one place and it not have some kind of result.