Sticky SM issue

[SR540Beaver]

Greg,

 

The question that keeps coming to my mind is why are only the boys reporting bad behavior on her part at campouts? How many adults go on the campouts? What is their take on it? Do they have a problem with her behavior? We had 9 adults aside from the SM on our last campout. Actually, 4 of thos adults were in and out of camp because of responsibilities they had running Camporee. But we had plenty of adults around that could have reported bad behavior by any adult or boy at the campout. Is it just the boys that complain or do the adults that go on the campouts complain too?

[Greg78]

Hi and Welcome to the forum.

 

++ Thank You ++

It seems that things have changed a bit from when you first posted. Or maybe I just read it wrong?

When I first read this it seemed that the PLC was trying to get rid of the Scoutmaster. Now it seems that there is a group of adults meddling in the back ground and behind all of this. The fact that they have tried to involve the PLC in their shenanigans is more shame on them.

 

++Sorry, Heres more to clarify: ASM hears 5 boys want to quit, calls other ASM's, Finds out more kids complain after EVERY campout. ASM's agree we have to do something. SPL takes initiative to find out which boys would like to see SM step down. SM is approached to step down and begins character assination of Eagle scouts, ASM's, SPL, and PLC.++

 

Like it or not your Scoutmaster has been selected by the Charter Organization and they and only they can ask her to step down. Of course if there has been a serious violation of BSA rules and policy the Scout Exec. could ask her to step down. Much the same can be said for the troop committee, this group has also been selected and approved by the charter organization and just because a few adults in the troop may be unhappy or dissatisfied is no real reason to start replacing them.

++ AAAhhhh, what a wonderful place to have a utopian CO and council. We have lots of wonderful people to share the scouting experience with. The one thing that I have learned to count on in my 10 years of Scouting from council is "let's wait and see what happens" and I have always had the experience of an absentee CO. This SM was picked as the only one that stepped up at the time to take control of the troop.++

 

To my mind the adults in the troop need to take a long hard look at the Scout Oath and Law. Paying special attention to Loyal and Trusted.

 

++The Scout Oath and Law is a fine thing - It's the reason I am in Scouts. We are operating from the premise that the Scout Program is supposed to be fun! These boys are only in it for a short time. If any adult leader is making boys quit, then it's time for a change! We do live in a democracy you know.++

 

Using your example of a business:

First I have never been involved with a business where the workers fire the boss.

Second if I found that the people who were meant to be serving the Company in a mid management capacity, were stirring things up and causing disharmony, I would take whatever steps needed to thank them for their past services. I would of course follow the correct procedure.

 

++The workers aren't firing the Boss, The Troop committee is. (the board is letting the CEO go)

The SM's job is to instill the values of scouting and to help the troop grow - the troop isn't growing if the senior boys are leaving the troop.++

 

I appreciate your comments. It helps to cement my resolve and encourage our committee to take action.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Except that the Committee can't fire the Scoutmaster, only COR can. The Committee can talk about it, resolve to communicate to the COR, but they can't fire the scoutmaster. They can make life so unbearable she leaves, but running her off and "firing" her are not the same.

 

I would like to know more specifics of how she is not a good leader. A few years back a few older boys in the troop wrote a letter to the Committee asking the present Scoutmaster be "fired" "stepdown" whatever. Seems he was berating them alot. Actually, I know for a fact he was. The scouts who wrote the letter wanted to go on campouts to hang out away from mom and dad and just chill. The scoutmaster expected them to perform the duties they were elected to, such as Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leader. The boys thought telling other people what to do once was enough and if it didnt get done, well, its wasnt their fault, they did their job. I tried talking to these two guys, I explained its not known as "the 7th Calvary's Last Stand" but Custer's Last Stand. The French Army didnt meet its Waterloo, Napoleon did. The fact leadership includes responsibility never did register. And the scoutmaster did a lot of "leadership counseling" the boys thought they were being yelled at, the scoutmaster thought of it as pointing out where they could have done a better job. Sometimes it does depend on whose ox is being gored.

 

SO, just because the older scouts dont like the scoutmaster its not an automatic "gotta get rid of the scoutmaster" If they leave, it may not be such a loss. What is the nature of the complaint, why dont they like her, specifics are needed. What exactly are they taking about?

[Fat Old Guy]

"Like it or not your Scoutmaster has been selected by the Charter Organization and they and only they can ask her to step down."

 

Not really, I could ask her to step down but the Charter Org can just fire her.

 

"Except that the Committee can't fire the Scoutmaster, only COR can."

 

I don't have a Committe Handbook handy but I thought that the CO selected the CC, who then selects a committee with the approval of the CO, and the Committee selects the SM. In a corporation, the stockholders don't fire the CEO, the Board does.

[Greg78]

OldGrayEagle

 

Thank you for your input

 

We will go as far as we can with the committee and approach the CO with the results.

As a committee we will have done what we think is right for the boys and leave it up to the CO.

 

I have asked the advice of roundtable members. and they wish us luck and encouragement, They seem to understand the SM we are dealing with. We have also approached our DE and he's seems to want to be the impartial observer.

 

I understand your view that it may be the boys don't like being harped on. That the SM is only providing proper direction. I thought this too when I heard my boy complain. I let him complain for 2 years. When we approached the SM, the response wasn't "What can I do to prevent the boys from leaving the troop". It was about who could she point blame for the failure of her style.

 

I have been involved on the Adult side of BSA leadership for 10 years. I have never heard of a SM that was so disliked by the boys in the troop.

[Davej775]

How can Scoutmaster slide thru training to become a Scoutmaster and have been with these boys all this time prior to becoming Scoutmaster not be discovered as the individual driving Scouts out of the troop? Was she hired out of the blue?

 

I want to refer to an earlier statement somewhere here about 'fairness and the law.'Something like fairness is point of view, not necessarily the law. In any arguement the winner winning would consider the judgment is fair. The loser in the arguement would consider losing unfair. Perhaps the older Scouts finding out that having to keep after the younger Scouts for completing choirs is unfair and not fun as they haven't developed a method to make it fun. Only when a senior Scout can have the junior Scout follow thru on an unpleasant choir, as in washing dishes, and look foward to the opportunity to do the dishes can we say the senior Scout has developed leadership skills.

 

Perhaps having followed thu on this they might thank this SM for her perserverence on their training, following the law, if that is the problem issue here.

 

Perhaps she's over compensating with the troop in order to deal with her son's affliction which may be clouding her manner of leadership.

In any case, the CO needs to concern themselves with what's happening. Dave J775., ASM

 

 

[Eamonn]

Scouting is not run as a democracy.

The Scoutmaster is not elected he or she is selected. As are the other adults at the unit level.

While your Unit Commissioner may want to offer help and advise this is a unit problem. No one from the District or Council is going to come in on a white horse.

It seems clear to me from what you have posted that the Assistant Scoutmasters have done very little in the way of assisting the Scoutmaster. With assistance like you describe I sure as heck wouldn't want it.

I would hope that before any Assistant Scoutmaster went around talking to the parents or the Scouts that they would have the common decency to talk with the Scoutmaster. What they have done shows a total disregard for the Scout Law. In fact if I were the Scoutmaster I would be talking to the committee and the Chartering Organization to have them removed.

Eamonn

[KoreaScouter]

Look at the succession of signature blocks on the adult application for unit leaders. Council is last, CO is next to last, CC is before CO. We all work for the CO. It's the CO's youth program, I just deliver it for them as the SM. It's the CO's youth program, the committee just enables it. I don't work for the CC, I work for the IH through his COR. Does it matter in my case? Not really, since the CC has my "virtual resignation letter" in his drawer every day. They don't have to make my life miserable so I'll leave. The day they don't want me there is the day I resign. I certainly hope it never comes to that, but the last thing I want to do is desperately cling to a volunteer job where I'm not wanted, making people around me miserable.

 

In this case, regardless of the circumstances (whether personality, character, malfeasance, embezzlement, BO, whatever), if that many people don't want you there, then go someplace else. One of the biggest problems many people have is confusing what they do with what they are. Our egos are so intertwined with our position patch that admitting we made a mistake or we're imperfect (then taking action to change and improve) is not an option because it'll destroy us. If that's the case, we're taking this way too seriously.

 

I'll tell you one thing, I take my hat off to the boys who have been displeased for two years, but are still hanging in there and taking risks to speak up. If they want to leave, move here and they can join my unit -- I'd welcome them with open arms!

 

KS

[Greg78]

Eamonn,

 

The bottom line here is that the Troop will be losing the older scouts if something isn't done about SM.

 

Is your solution to let the SM continue in this leadership role and drive the older scouts out of the troop?

 

I am an adult scouter because I had a blast being a Boy Scout! I feel an obligation to honor the time adults spent with me by providing the same or better experience than I had!

 

If you are an SM and you have scouts leaving the troop and hear of scouts threatening to quit (and its about you) then you have to step back and evaluate your methods. Maybe even step down for the good of the troop. Scouting is a fun program. If you can't deliver the fun then take another position. No one has to take it personally (though most do), sometimes the planets just don't line up correctly to let the magic happen.

 

[Greg78]

KoreaScouter! from Oahu! Man, we're on the next plane!

 

Your description of egos was right on!

 

Oh but wait. After the ASM asked that she stepped down we offered the CC position. Promptly turned down. That is when i saw the feathers ruffle up and new her ego would never let her take a lessor position. Lessor? CC is lessor? I guess so in some peoples eyes...

 

Davej745

you said:

"How can Scoutmaster slide thru training to become a Scoutmaster and have been with these boys all this time prior to becoming Scoutmaster not be discovered as the individual driving Scouts out of the troop? Was she hired out of the blue? "

 

If the CO only has one person raise their hand and volunteer, that's who you go with. when she took over the troop there were 4 boys and one was her's. The boys stayed in it 'cuz they like each other and us parents won't let them quit.

 

So the boys rose up and did the only thing they could do - they threaten to quit and complain about the SM. Good for them!

 

Thanks guy's! Our next meeting on this issue is Monday. You all have really helped me focus the issue.

[Eamonn]

For the sake of argument let's say that I am the Scoutmaster of a troop and some of the older boys/ Scouts are unhappy with my performance. Lets add that for some reason I'm too dumb to know this.

I would hope that the other adults in the troop would come to me and inform me about what was happening. Before they took off and tried to start some sort of rebellion. I would hope that if there was a problem that all the adults would rally around the Scoutmaster and try and fix what wasn't working or solve whatever the problem might be.

The sad thing about these forums is that we only see one side of the problem. Who is to say that the troop might be better off without these five older Scouts? Who is to say that they not acting is a Scout-like manner?

Still no matter what we do have a right way of doing things and a wrong way.

The right way in this instance would have been to go to the Scoutmaster and try and work things out. If that didn't work it should have gone to the troop committee and the COR. If the COR had seen that things could not be worked out he or she could working with the knowledge and go ahead from the head of the CO asked the Scoutmaster to step down or leave.

The Scoutmaster position is the responsibility of the CO. Not the Scouts or the ASM's. If she was doing such a terrible job why did she remain on the charter as Scoutmaster and why was it approved by the CO?

I serve as a District Chairman, every year a District Nominating Committee is formed and they could very easily nominate someone else to be the District Chair. As the position means that I sit on the Executive board I also have to be approved by that board. There may be some unit leaders and COR who think that I'm doing a lousy job. However they can't just band together and vote me out. They could make it known that I'm doing a lousy job and either make their concerns known to the nominating committee so that I would not be invited to serve next year or they could ask a member of the Executive board to make a motion at a meeting to have me removed. I serve at their pleasure, what I may want really is of no consequence.

There is a correct way of going about things which works. It is when people start making up their own rules and not following procedure that things go wrong, people get hurt and the good name of Scouting becomes tarnished.

Eamonn

[Greg78]

Eamonn, Dude you have a ton of experience in Scouts and International at that! I commend you for devoting your life to Scouting! It is a noble way to give back to your community.

 

As for your reply - we are at the committee action stage now. We have talked with the SM about her behaviour and she has summarily dismissed all charges.

Our two eagle scouts are not involved with the troop because of the SM.

We have already lost three boys and a ASM that is running the training for the District Roundtable. All because of this SM.

 

We are not trying to make our own rules here. We have struggled with each step. No one we have been in contact with has offered to tell us the rules for removing the SM. I've learned it from the forums on the website. We will have a meeting with the committee and the CO and go from there.

 

The SM has put her needs ahead of the boys. If you ever did that you would lose your seat too.

 

Scouting can't exist without the parents, and certianly will not exist without the boys.

 

Thank you for your time eamonn, Time is the only thing we have that's really worth anything. I thank you for sharing yours with me.

[Greg78]

Update:

 

We had a meeting last night with over 30 parents representing 18 of our 23 scouts. Every one had a chance to stand up and relate their experience and in the end we sent a letter of recommendation to the CO to have the current SM stand down and a nomination of a new scoutmaster.

 

The committee and ASM's are meeting with the CO tonight.

[Laurie]

I'm really sorry to hear this happened. Regardless of circumstances, it is a sad situation. I know of a unit that recently did something similar, but it bypassed the person being removed--no private conversation was held with that person to my knowledge. That seems wrong IMO, and I said so, and I fought what was coming. Were the concerns valid? Yes, they were, though I don't know that any of the suspicions were ever validated; it is the method that bothered me. I sincerely hope this move that has been made was worthwhile for the unit you serve. By the way, don't be surprised if this leads to people being afraid they might be next to be removed. Best wishes to the unit you serve.

[OldGreyEagle]

Other than the Scoutmaster had older boys peeved at her for her leadership style, and that she didnt agree she had problems with her style (not sure many of us would agree if met with a hostile bunch) Just what did/does the person do that has evryone riled up? Not having a fun troop is not the answer as everyone's view of fun is different. What can we learn from this incident? If the boys dont like you, you are toast?