summer camp - tent camping count

[jeanvaljean]

asking for some clarification, I did google and read around, but it is not clear or at least not logical, so I thought to ask here due to the wealth in knowledge.

 

why summer camp tent camping only count once for that camp, I was told that the first time a scout attends a summer camp they get credit for 6 camping nights, but if they attend the same summer camp the following year, none of the tent camping nights count for the Camping MB. is this true? if yes, then why? not sure I follow the logic behind it, isn't tent camping a tent camping regardless of what camp it is on?

[Eagle94-A1]

 not sure I follow the logic behind it, isn't tent camping a tent camping regardless of what camp it is on?

 

 

 

There are differences. I do not know the official reason why summer camp only counts once for various requirements. I can give you my thoughts though.

 

1) Monthly camping with your patrol is the heart and soul of Scouting. That is where you learn, refine, master, and teach those basic outdoor skills. "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt

 

2)The modern summer camp is not your typical camp out. You are sleeping in tents that are already pitched for you. Patrols do not need to come up with duty rosters and menus, nor do cooking and other patrol specific activities. Scouts eat in dining halls, and have a staff to do the work needed to get things done. Instead of patrol based activities, you have individual based classes.

 

3) I personally have mixed emotions on counting summer camp for the Camping MB. One one hand, everything they learn as part of the Camping MB, they are not doing at a modern summer cam for the most part. I have been to some recent camps that have have those in the classes go out into a wilderness area to pitch tents, work as a patrol, etc in order to make sure they really know the skills. On the other hand, I know how important summer camp is, especially to brand new Scouts. It's important not only for advancement, but also for social reasons. Summer camp is where you make friends for a life time.  I also know that not every Scout will have the chance to do a week long, traditional camp program. Every Scout will go to summer camp. But everyone doesn't get the chance to go to a HA base, or do a HA activity.

[qwazse]

The "why" comes from BSA rolling out requirements at different times and boots on the ground picking up the pieces. The Camping MB requirement has been around in some form for quite some time, gradually becoming more verbose as BSA sought to control membership loss via hegemony over youth outdoor overnights. The T2FC camping night requirements are quite recent, and seem to be an attempt to promote a more experiential learning model.

 

Your particular summer camp program (or maybe your troop's rules) , seem to be written so as to guide crossovers to focus on 1st class requirements over MBs. I suspect their thinking is that only one week of long term camp counts toward the MB, most scouts don't earn the MB in their first year, so just make a policy that the 2nd full week counts.

[Back Pack]

They count only one summer camp to keep Scouts from making their 20 nights for the Camping MB at just summer camp and a few monthly camp outs. It's the same reason OA only counts one camp. Scouting is about being outside.

[Stosh]

Hmmm.... let's see how that shakes out.  6 nights of camping for 1 week of summer camp.  That comes to 42 nights of camping for the 7 years one is in Boy Scouts.

 

That means they don't even do plop camping, they don't stray from the reservation, they still have flush toilets and nice showers and they can rack up maybe 30-35 MB's sitting at a picnic table.

 

So, does this sound like the adventure promised in the brochure? 

[perdidochas]

asking for some clarification, I did google and read around, but it is not clear or at least not logical, so I thought to ask here due to the wealth in knowledge.

 

why summer camp tent camping only count once for that camp, I was told that the first time a scout attends a summer camp they get credit for 6 camping nights, but if they attend the same summer camp the following year, none of the tent camping nights count for the Camping MB. is this true? if yes, then why? not sure I follow the logic behind it, isn't tent camping a tent camping regardless of what camp it is on?

Only a week of long term camping counts toward the camping merit badge.  Basically, the merit badge wants the boys to get a variety of camping experiences.  Summer camp is one of those possible experiences, but they need to have some time when they are setting up/taking down their own tents 

[Eagle94-A1]

Hmmm.... let's see how that shakes out.  6 nights of camping for 1 week of summer camp.  That comes to 42 nights of camping for the 7 years one is in Boy Scouts.

 

That means they don't even do plop camping, they don't stray from the reservation, they still have flush toilets and nice showers and they can rack up maybe 30-35 MB's sitting at a picnic table.

 

So, does this sound like the adventure promised in the brochure? 

 

 

Forgot all about the flush toilets and showers.

[NJCubScouter]

jeanvaljean,

 

FIrst of all the requirement allows the Scout to count six consecutive nights of "long-term camping" (which is usually summer camp) toward the 20 nights, period.  Even if you go to a different summer camp the following year or any other year, those nights (after the first six) do not count for the merit badge.  Here is the requirement:

 

 

 

Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent. * All campouts since becoming a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may count toward this requirement.

 

As for why nights at summer camp are limited to one week, the BSA does not publish their reasoning for the requirements (as far as I know), but my guess is: (1) They want the Scout to have a variety of camping experiences, including overnight/weekend camping, and in different places.  After deducting the six, that leaves 14, which means somewhere between seven and 14 different trips, depending on whether the trips are one night or two.  That allows for a pretty good variety, and of course the Scout must also meet the other subsections of that requirement, i.e. hiking, backpacking, traveling on water, cycling etc. (must do two of them) and a conservation project. (2) As others have pointed out, many summer camps have tents already set up, and the requirement allows for that.  However, I have never been on a weekend camping trip where tents were already set up; the troop bring its own tents and they are pitched by the Scouts and adults who are using them.  So part of the intent of the requirement also seems to be that for at least 14 of the camping nights, the Scout has pitched his own tent.

 

(I see my post "crossed in the mail" with perdidochas's, who managed to say basically the same thing in three sentences.)

Edited May 16, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[qwazse]

Forgot all about the flush toilets and showers.

As do many of our first-years!

[Col. Flagg]

Let's not forget, the long-term camping requirement ALSO applies to high adventure bases, NYLT and other long-term camps. So a Scout could conceivably go to summer camp, Philmont and NYLT all in one year (like my kid did) and only get one of those long-term camps counting toward their Camping MB or OA eligibility. (NOTE: Assuming they did not already have any other long-term camp previously being counted toward either of those things, then NONE of those camps count).

Edited May 16, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[NJCubScouter]

Let's not forget, the long-term camping requirement ALSO applies to high adventure bases, NYLT and other long-term camps. So a Scout could conceivably go to summer camp, Philmont and NYLT all in one year (like my kid did) and only get one of those long-term camps counting toward their Camping MB or OA eligibility. (NOTE: Assuming they did not already have any other long-term camp previously being counted toward either of those things, then NONE of those camps count).

If it made a difference, I would argue that a Philmont trek does not count as a "long-term camping experience" as that term is used in the Camping MB requirements. I believe "long-term camping experience" means that you sleep in the SAME PLACE for 5 or 6 nights. At Philmont I think each individual night in a different place, in a tent you have pitched, could count separately.

 

Except that I doubt it would ever make a difference. I cannot imagine a Scout going to Philmont who does not already have 20 nights camping that satisfy the MB requirements. I have never heard of the issue coming up.

 

A week-long NYLT, at least in my council, would be counted as if it were a week of "regular" summer camp. But again it doesn't really matter because nobody goes to youth leader training as their FIRST week of "long-term" camping, so by the time you get to NYLT (or TLD as it was in my day, 1973, Ten Mile River Scout Reservation) you have already had your 6 nights of "long term" so the NYLT does not count toward the merit badge.

Edited May 16, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Col. Flagg]

If it made a difference, I would argue that a Philmont trek does not count as a "long-term camping experience" as that term is used in the Camping MB requirements. I believe "long-term camping experience" means that you sleep in the SAME PLACE for 5 or 6 nights. At Philmont I think each individual night in a different place, in a tent you have pitched, could count.

 

Except that I doubt it would ever make a difference. A cannot imagine a Scout going to Philmont who does not already have 20 nights camping that satisfy the MB requirements.

 

Hmmm. So where does it say "same place" in the requirements? It simply says camp 20 nights at a designated Scouting event. It calls the long-term camp a "camping experience". So camping at Philmont does qualify as a Scouting event and a camping experience. I think interpreting Philmont as 5-6 different camping experiences is a bit much.  

 

 

 

a. Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.

[NJCubScouter]

Hmmm. So where does it say "same place" in the requirements? It simply says camp 20 nights at a designated Scouting event. It calls the long-term camp a "camping experience". So camping at Philmont does qualify as a Scouting event and a camping experience. I think interpreting Philmont as 5-6 different camping experiences is a bit much.  

 

It doesn't, but I think that's what a "long-term camping experience" is.  It's just one possible interpretation. And the requirement doesn't say "Scouting events", it says "Scouting activities and events."  The trek could just as easily be a series of camping experiences that are part of "Scouting activities."  But as I said, it's never going to matter so nobody is ever going to have to decide which is the correct interpretation.

Edited May 16, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[qwazse]

It doesn't, but I think that's what a "long-term camping experience" is.  It's just one possible interpretation. And the requirement doesn't say "Scouting events", it says "Scouting activities and events."  The trek could just as easily be a series of camping experiences that are part of "Scouting activities."  But as I said, it's never going to matter so nobody is ever going to have to decide which is the correct interpretation.

It seems to matter to lots of folks in this one of Bryan's most popular blogs https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

 

Based on the pamphlet and the phrasing, I felt that the point of the badge was to get the boy into a routine of planning, packing for, and returning from camping trips (lather, rinse, repeat). With all of the hair-splitting that has since ensued, makes me wonder if the requirement would have better been worded "Go on, and return home from, 15 camping trips of varying lengths."

Would that stifle the hair splitting? Probably not, but at least there could be a uniform reply ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjsSvjA5TuE

[NJCubScouter]

It seems to matter to lots of folks in this one of Bryan's most popular blogs https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

Well, all I said was, "I would argue..." I have now stopped arguing, because now I know the geniuses in Irving TX have decided that 10 nights in different locations in a vast mountainous Scout reservation is considered "long-term camping." And who am I to argue with that kind of logic? ((Sarcasm off))

 

But I still think that if you have not spent 20 nights in a tent or under the stars since joining Scouting, you really should not be going on a Philmont trek yet. I am not aware of anyone who ever has.

Edited May 16, 2017 by NJCubScouter