Does committee member have to be there for Eagle workday and what if none shows for the project?

[Eagle94-A1]

My thoughts.

 

Since when is an Eagle Project considered a troop activity requiring adult present? According to the Guide to Safe Scouting "

There are instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders

is not required and adult leadership may be limited to patrol leadership training

and guidance. With proper training, guidance, and approval by troop leaders,

the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. page 1 ( page 10 of pdf found here http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf)

 

I have seen projects where no adults were involved in the actual service. Heck the only adult at my projectwas my mother, and she was there because she drove me. The Scouts and I did all the work.

 

As someone else noted the "we" is bothering too. I have had the opportunity to sit in on the approval process for an Eagle Project for two scouts. While one needed help regarding the paperwork, he knew his project proposal inside out, and the only time adults got into it was to give clarification and some additional ideas he did not think of. The other one had his paperwork all in order, but talking about it, he needed his dad, also the SM, to help him out. 

[Back Pack]

My thoughts.

 

Since when is an Eagle Project considered a troop activity requiring adult present? According to the Guide to Safe Scouting "

There are instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders

is not required and adult leadership may be limited to patrol leadership training

and guidance. With proper training, guidance, and approval by troop leaders,

the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. page 1 ( page 10 of pdf found here http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf)

 

 

If you read further in that same document you'll come to this bit on page 39, it's the bsa sweet 16. The first part says:

 

Qualified Supervision. Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisor’s qualifications.

[andysmom]

Could the committee want someone there to see how the scout is demonstrating leadership?  This would not be a reason to delay the project, however.  There is nothing that says a committee member must be present for an Eagle Scout Service Project.

 

Although I don't believe we have had scouts complete projects where no unit adults were present, I believe it could happen.  If there is a question about how the scout demonstrated leadership in this case the committee could talk to any of the adults present.  As a committee member, I do not always work on the service project but I almost always stop in to see how everything is going and see if everything is needed.  It gives me an opportunity to see the scout "in action" so to speak and speak with the other adults there.

 

I would not consider an Eagle Project a "troop activity".  Eagle Scout projects are arranged and managed by the Scout, not the troop.  Scouts can perform service without troop leadership present as in the example of a patrol service project or of a scout does community service for an organization on his own to get service hours for advancement.

Edited May 12, 2017 by andysmom

[Back Pack]

It's a BSA activity, no? Again, why do we believe one quote of a doc that says one thing but not the other quote in the SAME doc? The Gtss says "patrol activity" but an eagle project is clearly not that.

 

It's a bsa activity so it would require an adult.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Back Pack

[Eagle94-A1]

I beleive the dopcument, but note the discrepecy. Also lament the fact that today's legalistic and sue happy society has forced the BSA to change its programs. It was not too long ago that Patrols could camp without adults on their own.

[CalicoPenn]

If you read further in that same document you'll come to this bit on page 39, it's the bsa sweet 16. The first part says:

 

Qualified Supervision. Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisor’s qualifications.

 

Note the wording used:  Every BSA activity SHOULD be supervised.  It does not say must.  It does not say shall.  It says should.  Why?  Because the BSA knows that there will be times when a "BSA Activity" is NOT supervised by an adult and they would have no defense if a Patrol decided to go play Frisbee golf during a Patrol meeting (for example) without an adult tagging along and someone got hurt if they required supervision by saying shall or must.  I'll remind everyone again - these guidelines, procedures, rules, and policies are designed to do one thing, and one thing only - protect the corporation that is the BSA. 

 

Note that it also states what they believe qualified means.  Want to argue that should means shall or must?  Then I'll counter argue that if a Troop sends a committee member that has never built a birdhouse to supervise an Eagle Scout project that involves building park benches, they are not sending a qualified adult.  But that's not what any of this is about.  It's about doing the best you can without reading more in to what is written than what is written.  I think this is why we get so many questions and stories about what units think are not allowed, or that they must do - when there is nothing in writing that backs those contentions up.

 

I don't know of many (for that matter any) Eagle Scout service project where at least one adult from the Troop is present - even if it's just the parent.  The BSA says in their flyer to beneficiaries that the Troop will provide an adult to keep an eye on things.  Note that they said adult - not leader - not committee member - adult.  Guess who counts as a Troop adult even if they aren't registered.....a parent.  Good ole Mom or Dad is an adult and though not registered, is still affiliated with the Troop.  At least in most of the Troops I've ever worked with - if you accept a non-registered parent as a driver to and from outings, I don't know how you could possibly deny that they are an adult for the Troop in the case of an Eagle Scout project.

 

To answer the original poster - you shouldn't be held up by a committee member's availability - if the project is scheduled for a certain Saturday and the Troop is unable to have a Committee Member, then as long as you are there, that should be more than acceptable - talk to the Scoutmaster about it if need be.

Edited May 12, 2017 by CalicoPenn

[Stosh]

 

If one were to read the requirement it states:

 

 

 

Supervision

To meet the requirement to “give leadership to others,†your Scout must be given every opportunity to succeed

independently without direct supervision. The Scout’s troop must provide adults to assist or keep an eye on things, and

your organization should also have someone available. The Scout, however, must provide the leadership necessary for

project completion without adult interference.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-025.pdf

 

 

So, in reading this, "others" do not necessitate them even being in Scouting.  Yes, it could mean other scouts and scouters, but that's not what it says.  If a project is to clean up a park, the candidate could be leading a group from his ecology club in high school.  And where does it say an Eagle Project is a Scout Activity?  It's an individual scout's activity. it is HIS project!

 

I do historical research on the side.  I have 2800 pages in a Word document that one of my scouts, who was like-minded as me, wanted to do a project that involved what I do.  I gave him my research and he put together a project that the council Eagle Committee didn't want to approve initially but gave him the go-ahead anyway.  He worked it out ON HIS OWN that it wasn't a project for me, but a project for the Veteran's Administration where he went out to the various cemeteries in the county and verified that veterans had proper markings on their graves.  He put together a crew of friends from school, church and scouts to help him.  He surveyed 4 different cemeteries and produced a report on 19 different graves that needed fixing.  He turned in his report to the Veteran's Administration and wrote out 19 applications for new head stones.  He did this on his own time, not scout activity time.  The VA signed off on his project.  The local media got wind of his project and had a photograph of him at a cemetery in full uniform that took up half the front page, second section, of the local newspaper.  Within a week it showed up on the state wide newspaper from out of the state capitol, again on the front page of the second section.   

 

I do believe according to the comments from some on the forum, he broke every rule in the book at one time or another.  But when the American Legion got wind of his work, they implemented a program to make sure that stones for veterans were surveyed every Memorial Day with the standards he had set up,  

 

Afterwards I asked if I could have a copy of his work for my research project, which he gladly provided. 

 

So, one must ask the question, did he show leadership?  Did he FOLLOW the rules or did he strike out on his own and prove he had "shown leadership" in his project?  Did I mentor, guide, direct, any of his project?  Only when he had questions about my research, yes.  For example, he did ask which stones to pay particular attention to.  I advised War of 1812 veteran have the oldest stones so pay close attention to those because they skink into the ground and get hit by lawn mowers the most.  Other than that, I didn't do anything other than participate as just another surveyor for his project as he directed me and others in the cemeteries.  He had all the maps and locations identified and we just did as he instructed.

 

I don't remember if any of the committee members from the unit volunteered to help out or not, but he had plenty of help anyway.

 

I had no question in my mind this Eagle knew how to lead.

 

By the way, there was never any need to have any adults around to "keep an eye" on anything.  The only thing I kept my eye on was my map and the next veteran's grave I was looking for.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Stosh

[SSScout]

At any Eagle Service Project, the only question should be "who's in charge?" and the only answer should be (must be?) (pointing to the Eagle Candidate) "HIM." 

 

Adults in attendance?  Good idea, not required, except for good guidance and use of tools and equipment the kids can't use.  Troop committee member attendance at the project? Nice but hey, if none are there, what does that indicate about their support of the Troop Program?  It certainly does not reflect on the Scout, if the rest of his project is in place and working.

 

Who gives approval of the project's completion?  Not the Troop committee, not the SM, not the parents.....    has to be the project's "beneficiary", yes? 

 

Scout12: any  repercussions for the Eagle Candidate, I  hope we have given him some guidance, but it is up to him.... 

[Col. Flagg]

Note the wording used:  Every BSA activity SHOULD be supervised.  It does not say must.  It does not say shall.  It says should.  Why?  Because the BSA knows that there will be times when a "BSA Activity" is NOT supervised by an adult and they would have no defense if a Patrol decided to go play Frisbee golf during a Patrol meeting (for example) without an adult tagging along and someone got hurt if they required supervision by saying shall or must.  I'll remind everyone again - these guidelines, procedures, rules, and policies are designed to do one thing, and one thing only - protect the corporation that is the BSA. 

 

The GTSS makes exceptions for patrol outings as stated above.

 

An Eagle project is a totally different animal. If you want to play the word game between "should" and "must" (which, by the way, only the attorneys here would do...no Scouter in the field would be so nitpicky) that's you prerogative. In my district, no SM would let an Eagle project take place without a trained adult being their just to make sure the GTSS and Sweet 16 are being applied.

 

I could see an argument against having an adult leader present *if* an Eagle project was done by the Eagle and friends from school. But if you are billing it as an event where the troop helps, that's a "BSA Event" as BackPack notes in his quote. That means an adult should be there. Since the liability is ours, in my mind should = must...unless you like playing roulette. 

[blw2]

I'll admit to only skimming this lengthy thread, so perhaps this has already been addressed

But I think the crux of the question is a semantical error.

   I believe what was meant by the OP

      does it have to be a registered scouter present, or can just an average parent do?

         committee member in this case = to SM, ASM, or Committee Member