LDS Dropping Senior Youth Scouting

[desertrat77]

I'm not a bettin' man, but I'm willing to lay out 2-cents that says this is gonna hurt for a while until BSA gets its head out of the sand.  Quicker the better.

That's the thing, Stosh, National is flat footed at the very times nimbleness and strategic vision are needed.   And to carry your card playing concept further, National loves to double-down on losing hands.

 

Remember the Improved Scouting Program...a disaster from the get-go, yet it took about 8 years for the BSA to call Green Bar Bill off the bench to save the day.

Edited May 11, 2017 by desertrat77

[Stosh]

@desertrat77 I think one of the reasons AHG and TL/USA are coming on strong is not so much the faith basis of the program, it's because it's going back to the basics as you wish BSA would be doing.  I was the one who started the "Classic Scouting"  thread that strayed off course rather quickly.  I don't think people want the Lombardi approach.  After all, how does one drag GBB out of the closet and admit he had something good going when you've been re-writing history to exclude him for all these years.

[jwest09]

Honest question: how many of these "lost" youth are actively involved in the Scouting program as us non-LDS folk understand it, and how many of them will not have any other opportunities to stay active in Scouting due to this policy?

 

Reason I ask - I'm located far from Utah, but in a large enough city that we have a pretty sizable LDS population in our council.  The LDS units are nearly 100% what we'd call "paper-only units."  They exist, technically.  But they don't participate in the Scouting program in the same sense as a traditional unit.  They don't buy uniforms, rank advancement, you'll never see them at a district event or round table.  Phone calls to their leaders go unanswered.  A handful (maybe 3 or 4) will do a week at summer camp.  But that's about it.

 

My understanding is Varsity was created mainly for LDS, and if you poll a room of 100 experienced scouters, I'd bet not more than 1 or 2 could really describe the Varsity in any great detail.

 

I've worked with more than a few LDS scouts who dual-register in a traditional unit, because they want to go camping and swimming and boating and hiking - you know, Scout stuff - and their LDS units just don't do those things.

 

Now, I completely understand the big picture here, that seeing the raw numbers go down this drastically isn't something to brush off.  I'm just questioning what the actual impact is going to be on delivering the Scouting program to youth and families who want to do scouting, and not just whatever their church's youth group program happens to be.  I suspect the overall impact on the day-to-day operation of most units and districts is going to be quite small.

 

(And, UncleP and desertrat77 - I couldn't have said it better myself.  My own belief is that if we're focusing on delivering a spectacular outdoor adventure, that doesn't leave much time to worry about and fight over politics!)

[desertrat77]

@desertrat77 I think one of the reasons AHG and TL/USA are coming on strong is not so much the faith basis of the program, it's because it's going back to the basics as you wish BSA would be doing.  I was the one who started the "Classic Scouting"  thread that strayed off course rather quickly.  I don't think people want the Lombardi approach.  After all, how does one drag GBB out of the closet and admit he had something good going when you've been re-writing history to exclude him for all these years.

I agree, it would take alot of humility for the BSA to give GBB his rightful place of honor.   I don't see it happening.

[Sentinel947]

Reason I ask - I'm located far from Utah, but in a large enough city that we have a pretty sizable LDS population in our council.  The LDS units are nearly 100% what we'd call "paper-only units."  They exist, technically.  But they don't participate in the Scouting program in the same sense as a traditional unit.  They don't buy uniforms, rank advancement, you'll never see them at a district event or round table.  Phone calls to their leaders go unanswered.  A handful (maybe 3 or 4) will do a week at summer camp.  But that's about it.

That is why I'm not as concerned. Every single LDS boy is enrolled in the BSA regardless of whether they are active or not. This is going to hurt the BSA. I think we all know this is not the bottom. We have a long way to go before we hit the bottom. Nationals leadership does not inspire confidence. But I know I'll soldier on for my Scouts.

 

I take the Mormon church at their word for why they made this decision.

[Back Pack]

If you believe that I've got some swamp land...

[Sentinel947]

If you believe that I've got some swamp land...

 

I do believe it. If they really made this decision because of the membership changes, why would they leave their youngest and most impressionable youth in the BSA? If they made this decision because of the membership changes ,then why did they wait so long? I'm inclined to believe their reasoning. If they pulled all of their youth out at once, I'd be more inclined to agree that it's the membership changes. 

 

I'm not overly optimistic. I know there's a possibility we lose all the Mormon chartered organizations. I know some of the Catholic Bishops are concerned about their dioceses future involvement with the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. We lost a lot of conservative charter organizations. There is not immediate swell of progressives to replace the folks that left. (And anybody who claimed their would be was kidding themselves.) The protesting and media attention against the BSA will continue until girls and atheists are allowed. It's a matter of time. The BSA will probably turn to allowing girls in order to try to stem the membership losses. Like I've said, we may have a further way to go before we hit rock bottom in membership, and I can't even imagine what things will look like when we get there.

 

I have some hope, looking at the UK Scouts. Scouting and the BSA will survive, but I have no idea what that will really look like. Certainly a shadow of it's former self from earlier and simpler times. 

 

On the bright side of things, my troop, district, and council are doing pretty well. At the end of the day, that's my sphere of influence. I cannot control the suits in Irving. I cannot control the culture war politics of our country, but I can guide my local youth in being Scouts. Even if the BSA dies, our work has not been totally wasted. Our legacies as Scout volunteers goes forwards in the hearts of the youth we've volunteered for. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Sentinel947

[David CO]

If you believe that I've got some swamp land...

 

Great.  Council will probably want to put a scout camp there.

[jwest09]

Great.  Council will probably want to put a scout camp there.

 

Is it also near train tracks??

[jwest09]

But seriously, while I recognize that my neighborhood isn't necessarily an accurate microcosm of the BSA as a whole, I'm pretty confident that loosing our LDS Venturing and Varsity units will have close to zero impact on the day-to-day of my unit and my district.  I'm genuinely curious what the practical impact is that you expect to see on the scouts you directly serve.

[David CO]

Is it also near train tracks??

 

Of course.  How else would they deliver the garbage to the land fill next door?

[EmberMike]

...I'm willing to lay out 2-cents that says this is gonna hurt for a while until BSA gets its head out of the sand. 

 

I think it will hurt for a while too, but I don't think BSA has its head in the sand. In fact, I'd put my 2 cents on the idea that losses because of membership policy changes were entirely expected and part of some longer-term vision for the 21st century BSA and beyond. This is purely hypothetical, of course, but I think the BSA made these membership policy changes with the expectation that those who support the changes represent future of the organization. They placed their bet on a more progressive and inclusive BSA. We won't know if that's a winning or losing bet for a long time. 

 

The LDS news is just a small piece of a much longer story that will play out for years to come. 

[WAKWIB]

LDS has officially stated on several occasions during the last few years that it is continuing to seek and evaluate programs that meet the needs of their youth. I think the main reason they continue to be on board with the BSA Troop and Pack programs is the name-brand recognition and the access it provides to events and properties. So, although they may surprise me, I think LDS will stick with the brands that offer those benefits. We all know that "Eagle" has become a brand unto itself. I'm sure many in the LDS community still see it as an important trophy and bullet-point on a resume. 

 

If, one day,  that church feels the BSA brands are no longer important or meaningful or heavily supported by the volunteers in their community, they will either adopt the Trail Life program or cook up one of their own.

[Back Pack]

We won't know if that's a winning or losing bet for a long time.

 

The LDS news is just a small piece of a much longer story that will play out for years to come.

 

Welll if bsa doesn't replace all the members and revenue they've lost as a result of these changes, the on they've lost. No company makes changes that loses revenue AND customers to its flag ship product to focus ona less productive and unknown product. That's just bad business. But I do admit bsa is likely so stupid as to believe such anplanncould work. Edited May 12, 2017 by Back Pack

[RememberSchiff]

No company makes changes that loses revenue AND customers to its flag ship product to focus ona less productive and unknown product. That's just bad business.

 

Yet the BSA has repeatedly made this mistake over the last 40 years.

 

The inconvenient truth, no matter how you change the program to accommodate, any replacement demographic sees the core demographic dropping out and questions why should they join.

Edited May 12, 2017 by RememberSchiff