LDS Dropping Senior Youth Scouting

[mashmaster]

Texas? If so, they pulled out near me too. One of the largest Baptist churches in my area (think live Nativity scene every Xmas) kicked out it's Cubs and Boy Scouts. Church of Christ did the same thing.

I'm in Texas but the local Baptist churches that were chartering are still chartering.  We are chartered by the Methodist church and they have been extremely supportive and I would say even more supportive with recent changes.  Just one random data point.

[RememberSchiff]

Getting back to topic, how could the BSA persuade these 185,000 boys to re-register in another troop?

 

As alluded in other topics, could the BSA credit non-Scout outings towards advancement?

Edited May 17, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[mashmaster]

Getting back to topic, how could the BSA persuade these 185,000 boys to re-register in another troop?

 

As alluded in other topics, could the BSA credit non-Scout outings towards advancement?

 

Could there be some transfer credit so to speak?

I think the key thing here is how many of the 185,000 boys actually scout in LDS Teams and Crews?  Based on my discussions with friends that are LDS and have their son dual enrolled in an LDS Troop and our Troop.  There is some percentage that are just signed up and not involved, some are active but only because they are called to be in the program, and others that are active and enjoy it.  For the last category, there are other troops and nothing stopping LDS leaders to form a unit not chartered by the church.  That is the group that BSA should reach out to.  If we call it a third for easy math BSA needs to figure out how to sign up 61,000+ scouts to new or existing non-LDS units.

 

The other two groups IMHO are not attainable for BSA.

[Col. Flagg]

Must be a regional thing. The LDS groups in my area are not dual enrolled in non-LDS units. They do their thing and us non-LDS types do ours. Other than RT I can't say I ever really cross paths with them at Camporee or OA or anything. There are plenty of units around but they just keep to themselves.

[RememberSchiff]

I think the key thing here is how many of the 185,000 boys actually scout in LDS Teams and Crews?  Based on my discussions with friends that are LDS and have their son dual enrolled in an LDS Troop and our Troop.  There is some percentage that are just signed up and not involved, some are active but only because they are called to be in the program, and others that are active and enjoy it.  For the last category, there are other troops and nothing stopping LDS leaders to form a unit not chartered by the church.  That is the group that BSA should reach out to.  If we call it a third for easy math BSA needs to figure out how to sign up 61,000+ scouts to new or existing non-LDS units.

 

The other two groups IMHO are not attainable for BSA.

 

Okay of that 61,000,  as an "encouragement" to continue in Scouts, should the BSA accept non-Scout hikes and campouts towards advancement?

[NJCubScouter]

Getting back to topic, how could the BSA persuade these 185,000 boys to re-register in another troop?

 

 

I agree that this is what the BSA should be focusing on.  Interestingly, I came across this statement by the current BSA National Commissioner (who is also an "LDS Scouter" and former official of the LDS Church in connection with youth/Scouting program) commenting on the church's recent announcement, http://scoutingwire.org/charles-dahlquist-bsa-lds-relationship/, and it includes this statement:

 

 

The Church will continue Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. In nearly all cases, Varsity and Venturing participants registered at local Church wards are also registered in Boy Scouts.

 

 

I bolded the word "registered" because it is bolded in the original.  I am not sure whether it changes the meaning of the sentence.  It was my undertanding that all LDS male youth are automatically registered in a unit at the appropropriate age level.  Unless I am reading that statement incorrectly, it means that the Varsity and Venturing youth members are also registered as Boy Scouts.  (Which they certainly can be, we had a Venture crew at our CO and almost all of the male members of the crew were simultaneously registered with our troop, until they turned 18 at which time some became ASM's or College Reserve and some didn't, but they remained as participants in the crew.)  If that is true, what is the big issue here?  If "nearly all" of the 185,000 are also registered as Boy Scouts, very few actual members are being lost. Right? And a dual-registered youth only pays one fee, right?  (Right?)  So that would mean that very little revenue would be lost.

 

Or am I reading that statement wrong?

[RememberSchiff]

My concern is while those scouts would remain enrolled for say a year, they would have less time for Scout activities with now LDS youth activities. So if it is a LDS hike or campout, allow credit to Scout advancement.

 

Not unlike allowing all the double and triple dipping that goes on with service projects among school, scouts, and church.

Edited May 17, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[NJCubScouter]

My concern is while those scouts would remain enrolled for say a year, they would have less time for Scout activities with now LDS youth activities. So if it is a LDS hike or campout, allow credit to Scout advancement.

 

Not unlike allowing all the double and triple dipping that goes on with service projects among school, scouts, and church.

 

I suspect that from the perspective of BSA National, the main question is whether a registration fee is being paid.  The statement I quoted above from the National Commissioner suggests that the Varsity/Venture members whose units are being dropped will remain as members of a Boy Scout troop.  (Presumably an LDS-chartered troop.)  If that's the case, then "counting" these activities should be something that can be worked out.  Again, this assumes that I am interpreting the statement correctly.

[Col. Flagg]

I know many will deride the source of these two articles (1, 2), but the linkage with the 2015 statement from the LDS about the membership policy change and the recent pull out interesting.

[walk in the woods]

 

 

I bolded the word "registered" because it is bolded in the original.  I am not sure whether it changes the meaning of the sentence.  It was my undertanding that all LDS male youth are automatically registered in a unit at the appropropriate age level.  Unless I am reading that statement incorrectly, it means that the Varsity and Venturing youth members are also registered as Boy Scouts.  (Which they certainly can be, we had a Venture crew at our CO and almost all of the male members of the crew were simultaneously registered with our troop, until they turned 18 at which time some became ASM's or College Reserve and some didn't, but they remained as participants in the crew.)  If that is true, what is the big issue here?  If "nearly all" of the 185,000 are also registered as Boy Scouts, very few actual members are being lost. Right? And a dual-registered youth only pays one fee, right?  (Right?)  So that would mean that very little revenue would be lost.

 

Or am I reading that statement wrong?

 

 

I think you're reading the statement correctly, but maybe the Commissioners words are a bit isolated?  

 

Depending on how we parse the language....There is this from the Q&A published by the church:

 

 

Can young men in these age groups continue to earn the Eagle Scout award?

• Yes. Young men who desire to continue toward the rank of Eagle will be registered, supported and encouraged. It is important to remember that only those young men who are properly registered are eligible to be awarded merit badges and rank advancements.

To me that suggests only boys 14+ who are interested in continuing toward Eagle will be registered the the ward's Troop, not all boys.  The list of activities published for the 14+ boys look a lot like Boy Scouting/Venturing in many ways.  If they allow the 14+ boys to be registered in the Troop but give credit for the activities they're doing anyway in the 14+ program, rather than actually participating in the troop, it might not affect membership at all.  But, if the 14+ boys have to do activities in the Troop for advancement plus the activities in the 14+ church program the results might be very different.

 

The Q&A also said:

 

 

Will the disparity of funding and activities that exists between the Church’s Young Men and Young Women programs be addressed as part of this change?

• Church leaders have long been aware of this concern. This new program brings the spending into balance for youth ages 14 through 18. This will continue to be a factor in the ongoing exploration and creation of a worldwide youth program.
• In each congregation, the ward council is encouraged to consider equally the needs of Young Women and Young Men and their families when planning activities and determining budgets.

If there's a goal to balance spending between the young men and Young Women programs, by reducing spending on the Young Men (yes, I'm reading between the lines), it would seem reasonable to me that boys in the 14+ program pursuing Eagle in the Troop might be encouraged to drop their Troop membership as soon as they completed the requirements.  That would create some drain but it might take a year or two to play out.

 

Could be a combination of both.  Maybe the payment for 2018 is to encourage as many boys as possible to complete the Eagle requirements by Dec. 31, 2018 and to accelerate their troop program to get as many boys to Eagle by age 14 as possible?  Hard to tell.

[NJCubScouter]

To me that suggests only boys 14+ who are interested in continuing toward Eagle will be registered the the ward's Troop, not all boys.  

 

I agree, and I had wondered about that in this thread a few pages ago.  But the Commissioner's statement seems to contradict this idea.  If all (or almost all) LDS over-14 male youth are now (and remain) registered in a troop, as the Commissioner suggests, and if the same fee is being paid, then this does not seem like it would affect the BSA at all.  And I know I may be hung up on the "fee" issue, but I think that's the element that makes this event a "BSA issue" rather than just a "LDS issue", and it is raised in the very first post in this thread.

[Peregrinator]

From what I have heard, most LDS boys 14+ do not participate in scouting (hence the push to get Eagle before 14), whether or not they are registered.

[NJCubScouter]

From what I have heard, most LDS boys 14+ do not participate in scouting (hence the push to get Eagle before 14), whether or not they are registered.

 

So what you are saying is that LDS boys do not procrastinate in their path to Eagle?  Maybe they publish something that my son could have read when it mattered.  

 

(If it isn't 100% clear, all of this post is meant to be humorous.)

Edited May 17, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Saltface]

So what you are saying is that LDS boys do not procrastinate in their path to Eagle?  Maybe they publish something that my son could have read when it mattered.  

 

(If it isn't 100% clear, all of this post is meant to be humorous.)

 

Wait! Do you mean that you can turn in an Eagle application prior to the day before your 18th birthday? I've seen plenty of those from LDS youth.

 

 

From what I have heard, most LDS boys 14+ do not participate in scouting (hence the push to get Eagle before 14), whether or not they are registered.

 

They do participate in Scouting, just not very much. They'll attend a merit badge clinic that they missed when they were younger, help with other Eagle projects, etc.

 

As their priesthood quorum IS their team or crew, they use leadership positions in the quorum for POR requirements (the two aren't terribly different).

Edited May 17, 2017 by Saltface

[Eagle94-A1]

My understanding of the LDS program from talking to LDS Scouters and reading their commentary on this announcement is that A) their 11 year old program is a set, repetitive program that is designed to get Scouts to First Class in a year, and is very adult leader oriented to the point that it seems like it is still Cub Scouts or "Webelos 3" and B) there is incredible pressure from LDS leaders on the Scouts to get Eagle before 14.

 

I know I was pressured to get Eagle before  getting into HS by my uncle. Thankfully not as much as my cousin was. Also I had a SM who realized Scouting needed to be fun. The more I think about my cousin, the more I can understand him leaving at 13 when he got Eagle.