LDS Dropping Senior Youth Scouting

[Stosh]

Easy...the PLC has a second activity for the younger scouts or they have the younger scouts use the tools they are allowed to.

 

So much for team building on the patrol level..... It's strange how ingrained our efforts are to work against the patrol method in scouting.

[qwazse]

So much for team building on the patrol level..... It's strange how ingrained our efforts are to work against the patrol method in scouting.

True, the PM has to be suspended in order to implement age-restricted activities. Or, the boys need to decide on rearranging patrols so that each patrol does the stuff appropriate for the youngest boys in their group.

 

The best of both worlds: the older PL picks a younger APL and when they come to these age-based splits, they segregate accordingly and PL and APL arrange to rendezvous after their respective activities.

[fred johnson]

Easy...the PLC has a second activity for the younger scouts or they have the younger scouts use the tools they are allowed to.

So much for team building on the patrol level.

 

As much as I get queasy every time this happens. I agree with Stosh.

 

 

True, the PM has to be suspended in order to implement age-restricted activities. Or, the boys need to decide on rearranging patrols so that each patrol does the stuff appropriate for the youngest boys in their group.

 

The best of both worlds: the older PL picks a younger APL and when they come to these age-based splits, they segregate accordingly and PL and APL arrange to rendezvous after their respective activities.

 

My interpretation of the PM is that the patrol should plan their own camp outs and their own activities.  Maybe within a larger troop camp out.  Maybe on their own camp out.  But in an ideal PM world, the PLC does not plan patrol activities as it contradicts the heart of the idea of the patrol method.

 

The answer I would use is that the patrol plans their own activities such that they cover their members.  For age constraints, they work as a team (patrol) to figure out what to do.

Edited May 16, 2017 by fred johnson

[fred johnson]

My my my ... I take a couple of weeks off, and suddenly I return to find all KINDS of crazy ideas ....

Nice job. I thought LDS announcement was clear and well written. This forum just had the same thing happen that political protesters use: grabbing onto anything they can to promote their agenda. BSA has been changing in sensitive ways. It cropped up in the LDS discussion.

[qwazse]

... The answer I would use is that the patrol plans their own activities such that they cover their members.  For age constraints, they work as a team (patrol) to figure out what to do.

Weakness of mine: listing possible solutions, when in fact it is up to the patrol to figure it out.

 

I think this is why LDS kept the Cub and Boy Scout programs. They explicitly force boys to work in community to resolve complex problems. There's no boiler-plate to fulfilling a vision of camping and hiking independently with your mates. Yet, we can offer everyone some milestones so they know when they've "arrived." A well-performing patrol is one of those milestones.

 

I'm sorry, but Venturing and Varsity offers no comparison.

[Col. Flagg]

So much for team building on the patrol level..... It's strange how ingrained our efforts are to work against the patrol method in scouting.

 

 

As much as I get queasy every time this happens. I agree with Stosh.

 

Or you can look at it this way: If all troops continue to struggle with engagement of their older Scouts, one way to entice them to continue to stay around and help is to offer up other activities for them to do AFTER they had done their mingling and helping of the younger Scouts.

 

Same as with a service project, @@Stosh. If I have guys cutting down trees and other work, the younger guys are doing one thing, the older guys another (per BSA tools guidelines, er, rules). There's no reason the Patrol Method cannot be used in these situation in mixed age patrols.

 

If one strives to follow the boy-led, Patrol Method as much as possible it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep older and younger Scouts apart, so mixed age patrols are a natural (read: non adult involved) occurrence. So if the PLC (without adults interfering) want to go caving and they can divvy up two activities, provide leadership, keep patrols together (albeit somewhat split) and still execute the boy-led/patrol method, who are we (adults) to step in and tell them they need to be the same age in the same patrols or that older scouts have to do the same stuff as younger scouts?

 

If the boys can execute the PM and boy-led and get all this done, I don't see the problem.

[NJCubScouter]

This forum just had the same thing happen that political protesters use: grabbing onto anything they can to promote their agenda.

 

Which is one of the things that makes our democracy great, if somewhat annoying sometimes, especially when the same issue is raised repeatedly and you (the generic you) happen to not be on the side that is raising it.

 

And I think we can expect that every time some CO somewhere decides to drop its BSA units, or even some of its units as the LDS Church has, someone in this forum will blame the decisions on "membership standards", whether it is accurate or not.

[Col. Flagg]

And I think we can expect that every time some CO somewhere decides to drop its BSA units, or even some of its units as the LDS Church has, someone in this forum will blame the decisions on "membership standards", whether it is accurate or not.

 

It will be blamed on the membership policy, which is a bit different than the membership standards. 

[NJCubScouter]

It will be blamed on the membership policy, which is a bit different than the membership standards.

Whatever. You don't need to tell me what you think the difference is.

[Col. Flagg]

Whatever. You don't need to tell me what you think the difference is.

 

So when the word nit-picking goes against you the reply is "whatever"? Good to know.

[Stosh]

Or you can look at it this way: If all troops continue to struggle with engagement of their older Scouts, one way to entice them to continue to stay around and help is to offer up other activities for them to do AFTER they had done their mingling and helping of the younger Scouts.

 

Same as with a service project, @@Stosh. If I have guys cutting down trees and other work, the younger guys are doing one thing, the older guys another (per BSA tools guidelines, er, rules). There's no reason the Patrol Method cannot be used in these situation in mixed age patrols.

 

If one strives to follow the boy-led, Patrol Method as much as possible it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep older and younger Scouts apart, so mixed age patrols are a natural (read: non adult involved) occurrence. So if the PLC (without adults interfering) want to go caving and they can divvy up two activities, provide leadership, keep patrols together (albeit somewhat split) and still execute the boy-led/patrol method, who are we (adults) to step in and tell them they need to be the same age in the same patrols or that older scouts have to do the same stuff as younger scouts?

 

If the boys can execute the PM and boy-led and get all this done, I don't see the problem.

 

Or.... the younger boys get tired of getting left out of the big boy Scouts, reinforcing the fact that they are Webelos III.....

Or...  the older boys get tired of dumbing down their activities to accommodate the new guys, reinforcing the fact they have to babysit....

 

Or... they both can shuck the whole mess and group together the way THEY want, not the way the ADULTS want in order to have them "teach the younger boys" or some other code phrase for babysitting.  Seriously, when I was in high school I really didn't want to hang out with the 6th graders....  Sorry if that's not good enough for the mixed age crowd.

 

I have no idea, in the four years I was in scouting, what my patrol was named or who the PL was,  I remember hanging with my buddies, we camped together, we worked together and I don't think we had a patrol, but the adults figured if we didn't cause anyone problems, they didn't care.

 

After 4 years of the same-old, same-old, we all left as a group and joined Civil Air Patrol.

 

So if one doesn't think the PM doesn't work, I don't care what THE BOYS decide how they want to set it up, THEY have the final say-so.  The first step in sabotaging the PM is to have adults dictate patrol membership and/or coerce the PLC to do what the adults want.

 

If the older boys don't want to "teach" the younger boys, don't sign up for "Instructor" POR.  If one wants to be a PL and never gets elected in his own patrol, offer up your services to the new guys.  Or take on TG, but in any case, it should be your decision and yours alone.

 

I constantly hear, We were together since Tigers and once we got to Boy Scouts, just one other kid and I are in the same patrol.  That doesn't sound like a scout that's all that hyped up happy about his next 7 years.

 

Or... they can both shuck the whole mess and find something else to do.

[NJCubScouter]

So when the word nit-picking goes against you the reply is "whatever"? Good to know.

No, I just don't see any difference between the two in this context. And for whatever it's worth, the BSA's preferred term seems to have been "membership standards". See http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/membership/pdf/Unit_Implementation_FAQ.pdf

[Col. Flagg]

Whatever. You don't need to tell me what you think the difference is.

 

I read some good advice today. Worth a read. 

[NJCubScouter]

 

I read some good advice today. Worth a read. 

 

I didn't do that.

[Col. Flagg]

Whatever. You don't need to tell me what you think the difference is.

 

I didn't do that.

 

You didn't? I don't need to tell you what I think the difference is? That's supposing you know what I am thinking or what I am going to say.

 

Your own words: "...nor should we be speculating about what a particular poster might say in a different situation".

 

I know you are a lawyer, but if you don't see that you are violating your own advice then I want you defending me if I ever get arrested. You certainly have the art of interpretation down to a science.