HELP..Extra camping nights needed

[fred johnson]

I realize there are many excuses not to get the boys together for a campout ...

20 nights camping is the requirement. More nights camping is just a comment on his experience and what he got out of it.

 

We have had at least two scouts recently who had trouble two twenty nights. One had severe allergies. The other was on major medicines and had a drug port. (not diabetic) Getting 20 nights camping was hard. One won't make Eagle. The other will.

 

So for some, 20 nights is a big hurdle in itself. Each kid is unique.

[perdidochas]

Judgemental much? How is that any different from the countless Eagle Scouts who got to 20 nights and stopped going camping after earning their camping merit badge? Should they give back their badge if they don't get tp 100 nights by the time they turn 18?

 

Let this kid get his nights camping. I'm sure he can find a way. Is he OA? Maybe he can Elangomat a couple of weekends and get more nights. Has he gone through NYLT or NAYLE? More opportunities there. 

 

We are here to help scouts achieve their goals even if their goal is to do the minimum required at the last possible moment. We are not here to throw roadblocks because we deem them less than worthy.

 

Yes, it is judgemental, but it's based on observation.  This kid can't be OA. OA requires 20 nights camping.  Yes, I made my judgement (I think it's similar to the Paper Eagle judgement often made on here), but if the kid were in my Troop, I'd still work with him, and would help set up campouts for him to finish.  I honestly can't see how you can develop enough scout skills to be First Class (much less Eagle) with the required minimum camping nights.  

[perdidochas]

15+ nights per year is normal (expected??) for many Troops. Some Scouts don't make all events so let's say we half that and round down to 7. Even then after three years you'd be at 20.

 

 

 

Agreed.

6 nights a year for summer camp, and then 5 campouts a year outside of that. That's pretty much what the better Scouts in the Troop have.   Our troop offers 24-26 nights a year of campouts (6 nights of summer camp, and 9-10 campouts (18-20 nights), not counting OA activities, which is at least 6 nights a year.  IMHO, a troop that only has 15 nights a year of campouts (including summer camp) is not a good troop.  

[perdidochas]

We have a local troop that prides itself on producing "uber scouts". They intentionally limit all weekend camping to one night to purposefully retard scouts progress in earning Camping merit Badge. (They also required Cooking for Eagle years and years before national made it Eagle-required.) What with the over-scheduling of youngsters these days, it did make it more difficult. 

The LDS units around here don't camp on Saturday nights, so they can only do one night per weekend camping.  

[perdidochas]

20 nights camping is the requirement. More nights camping is just a comment on his experience and what he got out of it.

 

We have had at least two scouts recently who had trouble two twenty nights. One had severe allergies. The other was on major medicines and had a drug port. (not diabetic) Getting 20 nights camping was hard. One won't make Eagle. The other will.

 

So for some, 20 nights is a big hurdle in itself. Each kid is unique.

Those are two very specialized cases.  

[Stosh]

As I mentioned earlier, problem solving is a good skill to have.  Make it work!  I'm sure there are a scout here or two that don't make Eagle for one reason or another.  One is they turn 18 and another is they only have 19 days of camping.  Both are controllable for the scout. 

 

Youth today are so engrained with excuses that they no longer need to problem solve and or take responsibility for their lives.  The earlier in life someone figures this out the happier they are going to be in the long run.

[Col. Flagg]

Years ago, our SM had a falling out with many members of our troop and they left to go to another local troop. We stayed but this SM remains and is very challenging and not very well liked. My son's friends in the other troop, who my son has stayed in touch, have invited him along on campouts to help get the nights needed quicker, including through the summer which is easier on his schedule. Is this allowed?

 

Requirement 9a says this..

 

Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent. *All campouts since becoming a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may count toward this requirement.

 

So whether camping with his own troop, or another troop, as long as he is camping at a "designated Scouting activity or event" those nights count. So OA, NYLT, camporee, high adventure, summer camp, weekend camping, patrol camping, troop camping...all count.

 

 

One of our dads is an Eagle and he said troops are always willing to help another troop and it should not be disallowed.

 

It's not disallowed. According to the Ask the Experts this is what is allowed. If the SM is disallowing using camping with another troop for the Camping MB, he's dead wrong. If the SM is acting as the MBC and is disallowing these camping nights, he's dead wrong. Of course, PROVIDED these nights were done as part of a Scouting event.

 

 

Any help anyone can offer would be appreciated. We have a meeting on Thursday with our council to put in writing exactly the trips he will be going on and as long as I have support that he can camp with other troops we are good to go. If someone knows where the exact rule can be found that he can camp with other troops that would be great. 

The Guide to Advancement does not say anything about camping nights other than 1) they must be Scouting event/activity (noted above), 2) you can apply nights earned for Second Class and First Class ALSO for the Camping MB. This is one of only a few cases where "double counting" is allowed. So to be clear, camping nights applied toward Second and First Class can be used for Camping MB too. 

 

Your council should definitely know the answer. Then, they should be having a meeting with your SM to read him the riot act on making up requirements and restrictions.

[Chadamus]

The OP didn't ask our personal opinion of what makes a good Eagle, he asked for help on official nights of camping.

 

Barry

+1 for the reminder Barry, but as you well know these threads frequently take their own paths. Reminds me of MattR's post questioning whether or not we're really helping anyone. Which, as far as I can tell, was answered most appropriately by MattR himself on page 1.

[qwazse]

Yes, it is judgemental, but it's based on observation.  This kid can't be OA. OA requires 20 nights camping.  Yes, I made my judgement (I think it's similar to the Paper Eagle judgement often made on here), but if the kid were in my Troop, I'd still work with him, and would help set up campouts for him to finish.  I honestly can't see how you can develop enough scout skills to be First Class (much less Eagle) with the required minimum camping nights.  

Again, you ignore facts in evidence.

 

O/A requires 15 nights. One summer camp, and 5 3-day weekends (including, but not limited to, cabin camping) in the span of two years, and the boy's in.

 

Many arrowmen have not earned Camping MB. In fact, for some, that extra ordeal night might be what brings them to their 21st required for the MB.

 

But, the real problem: SM's failure to instill a vision in PL's of independent hiking and camping weekends to suit their mates' needs and tastes. This could be because the parents gave the SM push-back. It could be that the SM didn't trust that his PL's were first class (concept not just patch) scouts. Or snow and cold scared everyone. Whatever.

 

End result: @@mlc's son had no clue that he should have been lining up nights for himself with his patrol. (E.g., "Hey fellas, let's camp on the field by my game this weekend. It will give my team good mojo.")

Heck, I'll nudge a PL to draft a plan to camp out with his guys by the ticket booth for some prime seats at their favorite concert the following month, I'd help them line it up .... maybe even call the owner of a restaurant to drop off a small order of fries to them. Other adults will never think outside of their unofficial boxes.

 

Now the boy may be at fault in not detecting that his troop was underselling program to him. Maybe he should have read his handbook to know more of what to expect, forcing the troop to raise the bar. After all, reading a reference thoroughly is the first step in mastering any scouting skill.

Edited May 9, 2017 by qwazse

[Ankylus]

Everyone's definition of "uber" scout is different. Seems like one night camping would promote the opposite. Seems like adults creating an excuse to have their Sunday's free.

 

One reason we leave in the morning is so that we don't start thinking about leaving on a main activity day. I guarantee you our troop switches into the mode of "let's pack up" when we realize we will be leaving soon. Heck, I'd be packing as much as possible around 7:30am Saturday.

 

Scouters need to focus less on "patrol method" and "slowing down" or "speeding up" requirements. The right focus is on program. Let's camp. Let's canoe. Let's get out there and do things. Then, let the requirements naturally follow.

 

I did not mean to imply any such motivation for your troop. I apologize if it came across that way. I agree that there can be legitimate reasons for that policy.

 

But this troop actually told us this when we were shopping troops coming out of Webelos.  They habitually add requirements for advancement. In addition to requiring Cooking MB prior to national, it's not enough to tie a bowline, for example. You have to tie it one handed. It's not enough to be able to tie all the required knots. You have to tie them in some shortened time period, like 10s of seconds.

 

They require youth to not only wear black or brown leather shoes, but they must be hiking boots for all troop functions or they are sent home and docked on their attendance. As a part of that, they actually line up and have a uniform inspection at every meeting before the meeting starts. Any uniform infraction, and they are sent home and their attendance docked. A part of the uniform inspection is to make sure their fingernails are not dirty.

 

It just goes on and one. They are quite proud of it.

[NJCubScouter]

But this troop actually told us this when we were shopping troops coming out of Webelos.  They habitually add requirements for advancement. In addition to requiring Cooking MB prior to national, it's not enough to tie a bowline, for example. You have to tie it one handed. It's not enough to be able to tie all the required knots. You have to tie them in some shortened time period, like 10s of seconds.

 

They require youth to not only wear black or brown leather shoes, but they must be hiking boots for all troop functions or they are sent home and docked on their attendance. As a part of that, they actually line up and have a uniform inspection at every meeting before the meeting starts. Any uniform infraction, and they are sent home and their attendance docked. A part of the uniform inspection is to make sure their fingernails are not dirty.

 

It just goes on and one. They are quite proud of it.

 

Well, at least they are up front about it.  Since they are not really running a BSA program in their troop, but rather a program of their own invention, they at least owe potential members that information before they join.

[Eagledad]

+1 for the reminder Barry, but as you well know these threads frequently take their own paths. Reminds me of MattR's post questioning whether or not we're really helping anyone. Which, as far as I can tell, was answered most appropriately by MattR himself on page 1.

I agree 100% with you. My struggle is that the thread went from helping answer a question for an Eagle requirement to a judgement whether the scout is deserving of the award. 

 

When the American generals were getting ready for the Normandy invasion, they specifically sought out Boy Scouts to lead the troops in the invasion. I seem to remember that they were actually looking for Eagle Scouts, but it's an old Scoutmaster minute and it very well could have been first class scouts or even just scouts. But here is the point, the two reasons they wanted scouts leading the forces was because they had leadership experience and first aid training. Number of nights camping was not even considered.

 

My point is there are multiple qualities that can set Eagles on a higher status. Judging a scout short of an award based on one quality when little else is known about that scout is disrespectful of all scouts. The opinion could have been made without judging the OP's son personally.

 

Barry 

[NJCubScouter]

I agree 100% with you. My struggle is that the thread went from helping answer a question for an Eagle requirement to a judgement whether the scout is deserving of the award. 

 

I have been an advocate for keeping our responses to a question, especially from a new Scouter or a parent, focused on the actual question that was asked.  And I agree that nobody should be making a judgment that a Scout (who none of us know) "deserves" Eagle in this type of situation.  He deserves Eagle if he fulfills the requirements.  But I also think it is natural to raise questions when someone presents what seems to be an extreme and almost unbelievable situation.  I think that category includes a situation where a Scout has been in a troop for 6 or 7 years and does not have 14 nights in a tent (aside from summer camp) - and apparently considerably fewer than that, because he now has to rush around to get the remaining nights in before the end of the year.  This of course does not excuse the behavior of the SM/MB counselor in adding to the requirements.

Edited May 10, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Eagledad]

I have been an advocate for keeping our responses to a question, especially from a new Scouter or a parent, focused on the actual question that was asked.  And I agree that nobody should be making a judgment that a Scout (who none of us know) "deserves" Eagle in this type of situation.  He deserves Eagle if he fulfills the requirements.  But I also think it is natural to raise questions when someone presents what seems to be an extreme and almost unbelievable situation.  I think that category includes a situation where a Scout has been in a troop for 6 or 7 years and does not have 14 nights in a tent (aside from summer camp) - and apparently considerably fewer than that, because he now has to rush around to get the remaining nights in before the end of the year.  This of course does not excuse the behavior of the SM/MB counselor in adding to the requirements.

So you advise the parent to stop the process of their son earning their Eagle. Just quit?

 

There are better ways of making a point without attacking the OP. Splain it to me NJ. Put yourself in the OPs shoes first, and then tell him what he should do? How do you think a parent should react when a bunch of faceless strangers attack their kids?

 

The opinion could have been brought out differently.

 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

So you advise the parent to stop the process of their son earning their Eagle. Just quit?

 

 

Barry

 

Where did NJ advise that?

Edited May 10, 2017 by RememberSchiff