Push for Coed Scouting

[TAHAWK]

Once upon a time, we were told that 50% of Webelos were not crossing over to Scouts. We were told that the primary reason was that Webelos-aged boys were intimidated by the older Scouts - High School kids !

 

The troop made sure each Webelos den in our two feeder packs had carefully-selected Den Chiefs.  Emphasis on Friendly and Cheerful.  Thereafter, we got so close to 100% crossing over for twenty-five years as to not be an issue for us.

 

I have been repeatedly told by SMs that they have no Scouts available to be Den Chiefs.  But I have also been repeatedly told there is no time for actual Boy Scouting (Scouts spending time primarily in a patrol context), so . . . .

[Eagle94-A1]

It's hard enough that getting fifth graders to adapt to camping without mom and dad. Couldn't imagine them doing it earlier.

 

 

Key to this is start them early. My middle son's Webelos Den did Castaway Adventure (aka Wildersness Survival Lite) either as individuals or on their own. In fact two of the guys freaked out a DL from another troop because they had their shelter built, fire lit, and cooking lunch while his den was still trying to get organized and build a group shelter.

 

Their first camp out with the troop will be this weekend.

[bearess]

I think integrating kids into Boy Scouts early is key. The break between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is a natural time to evaluate if you want to stick with a program. By making that break less distinct, you're going to increase retention.

[EmberMike]

Inspired by this topic, I spent some time over the weekend looking up various co-ed camp programs. I know, they're not entirely comparable to BSA summer camp, but I was just interested in finding out how common gender-specific camps are and what (if any) argument they gave for being restrictive in terms of gender. 

 

First thing that hit me is how much of a bargain BSA summer camp is compared to private camps. Holy moly, $1,600 or more per week?? Wow...

 

Anyway, as it relates to gender, I have to admit I was a bit swayed in my thinking about the benefits of gender-segregated camping. You can definitely pick up on a somewhat different vibe in the segregated camps compared to the co-ed ones. Ultimately I think all kids benefit from and enjoy a quality summer camp experience if the program is good, regardless of gender policy. But especially at the girls' camps, and in reading parent feedback about these camps, I do think girls may be more likely to sort of "cut lose" and truly be themselves among groups of girls.

 

I kind of hate to admit it, since I'm still in favor of a co-ed scouting program, but if I'm being honest I have to recognize that there is for sure a legit argument for the benefits of gender segregation in a camp setting.  

 

That said, I still think there is also great benefit to kids learning to better work and camp together amongst the opposite gender. And ultimately I think the BSA will eventually go co-ed regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about it. But I had a bit of an eye-opening experience doing this research, watching videos, and finding out more about all-girls and all-boys camps. 

 

One last interesting thing I found: One of the more popular camps here on the east coast actually has 3 separate camps. One all girls, one all boys, and one co-ed. So families really do get a true choice in which environment they prefer. While I think it's great to have a choice, the difference between the BSA and private camp companies is that there is balanced choice in the private camps. Parents aren't choosing a lesser camp experience in favor of gender segregation. And I think that's a key element missing in scouting in the US, the feeling that girls really don't get a choice of an option that is on par with the boys' program. 

 

I know this is all sort of random and not always entirely relatable to BSA, but it was interesting none-the-less. If you're as unaware as I was about these private summer camps, I'd suggest checking them out. It's really interesting. And a bit shocking when you start to see pricing. But then less shocking when you see how gorgeous some of these camp facilities are. 

[RememberSchiff]

First thing that hit me is how much of a bargain BSA summer camp is compared to private camps. Holy moly, $1,600 or more per week?? Wow...

 

You may be comparing outhouses/pits to flush toilets/septic systems; 16yr old counselors to adult; bug juice to real orange juice.

Edited February 20, 2017 by RememberSchiff

[EmberMike]

You may be comparing outhouses/pits to flush toilets/septic systems; 16yr old counselors to adult; bug juice to real orange juice.

 

It's bug juice if it were made from 100% locally-raised organic fresh-squeezed cage-free bugs. 

 

[Pale Horse]

I think integrating kids into Boy Scouts early is key. The break between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is a natural time to evaluate if you want to stick with a program. By making that break less distinct, you're going to increase retention.

 

 

This right here.  That's why the push for year round scouting too.  Most people if they leave, do so in the natural breaks between the school year. By providing that year-round program and less-distinct break between cub & boys, it doesn't offer a specific time for parents to reevaluate if they want to keep their kids in scouts.

[Eagle94-A1]

It's hard enough that getting fifth graders to adapt to camping without mom and dad. Couldn't imagine them doing it earlier.

 

Why not just have the PARENTS of Webelos get more involved and deliver a good Webelos program? Make it more outdoors and more camping. My guys camped monthly for nearly two years. Weren't bored. It's all what the leader makes of it.

 

This, along with the Where's the Adventure thread got me thinking. In my expereince, with the exception of a few cases, it is THE PARENTS (emphasis) that have the hardest time letting go when their sons become Boy Scouts. Best Example, but worst case, is the 2 Moms who plan on going to summer camp with their sons.They have been informed that A) they will not be interfering with their sons B) they will be taking training and other classes, and C) THEY WILL NOT BE HOVERING AROUND THEIR SONS.  We had a dad that planned to go with his son, but the $180 adult fee got him. But these moms are a different story. Part of me wishes I was going to summer camp to help the Scouts keep parents away. Part of me is glad I'm not going and having to deal with the headache.

 

And yes, the transition from Cubs to Boy Scouts is a good time to reeveluate participation. there have been a few cases where the new scouts realizing they are on their own have decided to leave. And there are some who cross over who are no longer interested in Scouting but are forced to participate by their parents. I really wish Mom and Dad would realize how much their son's negative attitude and lack of caring impacts those who want to be there. 

[Back Pack]

We have a rule: If your kid needs someone, at camp or elsewhere, you are NOT the one to deal with them. So mom can come if she wants but she won't be anywhere near her kid except at meal time.

[TAHAWK]

It's bug juice if it were made from 100% locally-raised organic fresh-squeezed cage-free bugs. 

 

Darn right!  No silicon-based bugs for our bug juice.  All carbon-based life forms.  We use a form of stainless steel coffee press to insure freshness: "Squeezed at your table."

[EmberMike]

We have a rule: If your kid needs someone, at camp or elsewhere, you are NOT the one to deal with them. So mom can come if she wants but she won't be anywhere near her kid except at meal time.

 

When I was a kid, I don't think a parent ever came to camp, and during the week of summer camp the rule was one phone call per kid. Which was also sort of a logistic thing because this was pre-cellphone age and we had to hike it up to the camp office and use a pay phone. But it was also to prevent parents from talking to their kids every day. Most of the time, only first-year campers ever wanted to make the hike up to the pay phone. 

 

At a recent Webelo/Troop campout, the scouts all went off to do something in the woods. One of the Webelo dads started putting on his coat and we knew where he was headed. Fortunately the SM persuaded him to hang out in the dining hall for a while and let the kids have some time to themselves. Some parents can easily be convinced to leave the kids alone, especially when they learn the beauty of a perfectly quiet dining hall and an endless coffee pot. 

[MattR]

It's hard enough that getting fifth graders to adapt to camping without mom and dad. Couldn't imagine them doing it earlier.

Why not just have the PARENTS of Webelos get more involved and deliver a good Webelos program? Make it more outdoors and more camping. My guys camped monthly for nearly two years. Weren't bored. It's all what the leader makes of it.

I keep seeing this quote and I need to clarify. I never said move the second webelo year into boy scouts or change any of the rules about parents going with their son. I just said have the webelos meet with the troop.

 

I agree that having parents with more ideas and doing a better job would be great, but most webelo parents are burned out and don't understand what boy scouts is about. So moving the webelo den near a troop helps train the parents, it shows the webelos what their future might hold, and it gives the webelos a way to ease into boy scouts, not just one day we're at cub scouts and the next we're into boy scouts.

 

There's a big range of maturity coming in from webelos. Some kids are ready when they're ten and some don't seem to get it until they're 12. As much as I'd like to see a simple rule about what new scouts can do, the cub scout to boy scout transition can be a shock and I've seen it drive kids away. The point is, lessen that shock.

Edited February 20, 2017 by MattR

[NJCubScouter]

I think integrating kids into Boy Scouts early is key. The break between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is a natural time to evaluate if you want to stick with a program. By making that break less distinct, you're going to increase retention.

 

The BSA has been talking about "making that break less distinct" for a long, long time but they have not really done anything meaningful to accomplish it.  I believe the term the BSA uses is "seamless transition."  Some of the things they have done have been really superficial, like when the Webelos hat was changed from its previous pattern (blue and gold with the plaid on front?) to green with the plaid on front, because green was the color of the Boy Scout cap.  I kid you not, when this occurred a guy running a Scout Shop explained to me that this was supposed to increase the odds of a boy wanting to cross over because the main color of the hat would be similar.  (This was about 15 years ago or so I guess.)  Needless to say, I don't think that's the answer.  If the BSA really wants a "seamless transition" then Cubs and Boy Scouts needs to be one unit so the Scout is not leaving one unit and joining another.  But of course that would be a big change and there would be a lot of resistance to it... and I am not necessarily advocating that.  It would be more like it is in the UK (or at least how I understand it to be), with different age groups meeting separately but all as part of one "group" and you just go from one age group to another.  But it would raise issues at various CO's, for example where my son was in the Cub Scouts, there has never been a Boy Scout troop, and some of the CO's with troops have Cub Scout packs, and some don't.  So do you eliminate the "standalone" units or do you create new units to "fill in the blanks"?   The latter might seem like the right answer, but I know that in our area if you added a new troop in one location (because there is a pack there), you would probably lose a troop in another location.  I am sure a lot of people would not be enthusiastic about this. 

[fred johnson]

If the BSA really wants a "seamless transition" then Cubs and Boy Scouts needs to be one unit so the Scout is not leaving one unit and joining another.  

 

I agree, that really is the only way to create a seamless transition.  Otherwise, you are always shopping to decide what is the best type of program you want to join.  IMHO, it also might be good because Cub Scouts is too long with drastic different maturity levels.  Perhaps the model is more like a sports program with each age bracket emphasizing different things.  

• K&1 emphasize go-see-it.  
• 2&3 emphasize expanding horizons and exploring the world.  
• 4&5 emphasize first time camping.  
• 6-8 emphasize first class skills.  
• 9-12 emphasize adventure.  

Creating a single unit with divided emphasis might also be a way to avoid people developing a singular view that it will be 12 years of Tiger Cubs activities.  

 

IMHO, the program right now has not gone through enough basic structural improvements and it's hurting itself.  Significant basic changes need to occur.

Edited February 20, 2017 by fred johnson

[Eagledad]

There's a big range of maturity coming in from webelos. Some kids are ready when they're ten and some don't seem to get it until they're 12. As much as I'd like to see a simple rule about what new scouts can do, the cub scout to boy scout transition can be a shock and I've seen it drive kids away. The point is, lessen that shock.

Matt, you have a very good grasp of the situation. There are two different problems mixing in the discussion. One is boys who are not mature enough for the troop program, the other is Cub adult burnout driving boring den programs. Bringing 2nd year Webelos to troop meeting and a few activities is a good idea because it not only Lets Webelos tsee the troop Scouts in action, it also gives troop leaders a chance to assist the burned out Web leader in proving a better Webelos program.

 

It also helps in the other problem of first year scout maturity, because as you said, knowing what to expect reduces the shock of the troop program. This is serious issue because more Scouts drop out during the first year troop experience than any other age. NSPs and First Class In The First Year (FCFY) is how National attacked the problem around 1990. But, the numbers hasn't changed and I'm my opinion, the program went to a less adventure formate because it focuses too much on advancement.

 

All that being said (I know, I keep repeating myself), the adult burnout issue still needs to be addressed. I've said many times here, I personally would start by taking the Tigers out of the Cub program. Tiger age Scouts don't have the reading skills or behavior discipline that helps Pack Meetings run faster and smoother. They basically still have the maturity of toddlers.

 

Just as important, the first grade year is typically a chaotic year for parents because that is the first year all programs like sports, church, and school change from toddler to elementary mature activities. They are hit by the multiple programs to register the kids just in the first week of school. Overwhelmed Parents are why Tigers has such a low crossover to bears. When National change the Tiger program in 2000 to require a parent for each scout attend four meetings a month, we predicted a higher dropout in Tigers and a sudden drop in troop membership in five years. It wasn't hard to predict, but it sure had people scratching their heads as it happened. Give the parents a year to get used to their more complicated lifestyle, then they can consider Scouts at an age where parents aren't required for every meeting.

 

I know a lot of folks are afraid if they don't snag boys in first grade, they may never get them. But we had a pack drop their tiger program completely and never saw a drop in membership the 5 years I tracked them.

 

As I said, the BSA membership decline is a complicated problem. Adding new demographic sources will not slow the bleeding because the problems are still there, and likely make the problems worse by adding more complexity.

 

Barry