Push for Coed Scouting

[walk in the woods]

Hard to judge Stosh.  With boy-mostly sports like football falling out of favor the last few years I suspect the numbers could be skewed.  A young man who had previously focused on playing football and/or wrestling, might not find another structured sport in which to participate.

[krikkitbot]

I think that as I read all of the comments, the resistance to change can be boiled down to one word. I'll let Tevye say it for me.

 

[MattR]

The most striking American experiment we have is venturing, the singular co-ed program that has had the most rapid membership decline of all of BSA's programs.

Even the Brit's are just now coming around to serve as many boys as they had before going co-ed. More discussion here:

http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28648-how-has-the-addition-of-girls-affected-scouting-in-other-countries/

All evidence points to BSA's membership decline accelerating by going fully co-ed at least in the near term.

 

But venturing always was coed, so girls can't be the reason for the drop. I think the drop in venturing holds the key to the problems. Two things I can think of is scouting in the US is seen as a way to stuff your college app by too many people. Imagine boy scouts without Eagle. How many scouts would drop out.

 

Another other issue is friendships. They develop early on, before age 14. That doesn't explain a drop in venturing though.

 

I would support this. Lower Venturing to 11 and allow girls to join. Let's see how that changes membership numbers...but in Venturing.

 

 

The problem is outreach in my opinion. Councils and districts don't really have a decent, workable, realistic program for reaching out to various communities.

 

For example, there is a large Indian (sub-continent India) population in my area. Scouting is a foreign concept and largely misunderstood. The council had an all day session on how to reach out to that community. I attended hoping to get some information that was useful. At the end of the session the big take away was "recruit more Indians".  Not HOW to recruit them; just the obvious answer that recruiting more means more members. Really? Who'd have thunk it?

 

As BSA has done with other outreach programs, such as ScoutReach, they need to spend some considerable time actually working on realistic ways to increase membership in undeserved communities. I am not familiar with the details of ScoutReach so, to be honest, I don't know if it is effective, cost prohibitive or even successful. But it appears to have more focus than simply saying "recruit more of x" people.

 

I'd be all for lowering Venturing age to 11. Whatever it takes to solve the venturing problem will surely help the boy scout side.

 

The outreach programs I've heard of (Mexican and Vietnamese) have come back and said these communities want not not so much coed, but the whole family. Siblings tend to stay together, so when the older brother goes to an event there needs to be something for the rest of the siblings. There's nothing wrong with having a separate program, just make sure they can meet the same time in the same place. That's another way to make it coed. High school sports are not coed but we do have title iX.

 

Again, what's wrong with an all girl troop that shares a CO with an all boy troop? That would certainly make life easier for parents.

[Eagledad]

I think that as I read all of the comments, the resistance to change can be boiled down to one word. I'll let Tevye say it for me.

 

Well, I think it is a lot more than that, but if everyone is fighting to change the BSA rather than the GSUSA and just plain ignoring the co-gender Campfire kids program, it must have a pretty good tradition.

 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

National heaved BSA Tradition over a cliff in the 80's when it allowed female Boy Scout leaders.

[Eagledad]

National heaved BSA Tradition over a cliff in the 80's when it allowed female Boy Scout leaders.

So you want to pile-on, is that it?

 

Barry

[EmberMike]

Well, I think it is a lot more than that, but if everyone is fighting to change the BSA rather than the GSUSA and just plain ignoring the co-gender Campfire kids program, it must have a pretty good tradition.

 

Barry

 

 

If other programs were comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. BSA is the best, and it's not just my biased opinion saying that. Obviously with people always wanting in at BSA and not many (if any) people knocking at the doors of the other organizations to get in over there, the demand kind of speaks for itself. 

 

I'm not happy saying that, I wish there was a broader range of available programs in the US. But the reality is that there just isn't a real BSA competitor. 

[EmberMike]

National heaved BSA Tradition over a cliff in the 80's when it allowed female Boy Scout leaders.

 

National heaved tradition off a cliff long before that. Traditional scouting was a handful of badges, service to community, and lots of camping and bushcraft. 

 

In any discussion about change of any kind in Scouting it always cracks me up that people resist anything in the defense of "tradition". We haven't had a traditional scouting program since maybe the 50s or 60s. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by EmberMike

[Eagledad]

If other programs were comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. BSA is the best, and it's not just my biased opinion saying that. Obviously with people always wanting in at BSA and not many (if any) people knocking at the doors of the other organizations to get in over there, the demand kind of speaks for itself. 

 

 

And you are willing to risk that? It is better to copy a good thing than to change it.

 

Barry

[krikkitbot]

And you are willing to risk that? It is better to copy a good thing than to change it.

 

Barry

 

So a separate organization but an equal program?

[walk in the woods]

If other programs were comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. BSA is the best, and it's not just my biased opinion saying that. Obviously with people always wanting in at BSA and not many (if any) people knocking at the doors of the other organizations to get in over there, the demand kind of speaks for itself. 

 

I'm not happy saying that, I wish there was a broader range of available programs in the US. But the reality is that there just isn't a real BSA competitor. 

I always find this a bit circular.  The BSA is the best program, but we want it to change to accommodate different membership, because we've been unable to replicate the program, which means the BSA is no longer the BSA that created the best program.  It's possible that one can hold everything else constant and convince oneself that changing membership criteria won't affect program, but, it's difficult to prove unless one runs the experiment.

 

I don't find pointing to the rest of the world a particularly compelling argument.  To pick on our UK friends a bit, the size and population of the UK is roughly equivalent to the states of VT, NH, CT, RI, MA, NJ, MD, DE and the eastern parts of NY and PA.  If one were to make the argument to implement a UK style scouting program inside a circle drawn around that area, I suspect it wouldn't run into much resistance.  The decisions would be driven by the large urban/suburban areas and I'm sure it would be very successful.  That small circle of the US however, has a much relationship to the rest of the US and the UK does.  

 

There's probably no solution here other than local option but that requires some mutual respect from both sides 

[TAHAWK]

Lots of changes.

 

Buddhists in the mid 1920s

Allowing Scouts "of color" in  "White" units 1920s  (As was the case with my boyhood troop in California.  They had photographs to document it.)

BSA Inter-Racial Service formed 1927

Cub Scouts 1930 (So uniformed female Scouters.)

Advocating elected PLs in the 1930s

Mandatory shift to Exploring at age 14 ends in 1946

Banning racial discrimination in membership in 1974 (a settlement after being sued by the NAACP)

Preferring chemical stoves to open fires in the 1980s

No underwear skits in the 2000s  

[Eagledad]

So a separate organization but an equal program?

I guess. I'm an engineer and you ask a broad question without a lot of details. Would that be like asking the BSA and GSUSA to meet at the same time so the whole family can come at the same time?

 

Barry

[Stosh]

If other programs were comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. BSA is the best, and it's not just my biased opinion saying that. Obviously with people always wanting in at BSA and not many (if any) people knocking at the doors of the other organizations to get in over there, the demand kind of speaks for itself. 

 

I'm not happy saying that, I wish there was a broader range of available programs in the US. But the reality is that there just isn't a real BSA competitor. 

 

One must get their facts straight here.  Your comment that the BSA is the best might not hold water and of course one is entitled to their own subjective opinions.

 

Let's back up and take a serious look. 4-H predates back to the late 1800's when talk about the need for youth development first began.  By 1902 there were various "4-H Clubs" popping up around the country  Today the membership in 4-H is almost 3 times that of the BSA.  They were into STEM and a variety of different avenues long before BSA came along as a "Johnny-come-lately".

 

 

"The organization has over 6.5 million members in the United States, from ages 5 to 21, in approximately 90,000 clubs. The goal of 4-H is to develop citizenship, leadership, responsibility and life skills of youth through experiential learning programs and a positive youth development approach." - Wikepedia

 

It is also global in nature with 4-H extension in 50 countries.

 

"The goal of 4-H is to develop citizenship, leadership, responsibility and life skills of youth through experimental learning programs and a positive youth development approach. Though typically thought of as an agriculturally focused organization as a result of its history, 4-H today focuses on citizenship, healthy living, science, engineering, and technology programs. The 4-H motto is "To make the best better", while its slogan is "Learn by doing" - Wikepedia

 

They have always been co-ed.

 

Maybe they have the key "To make the best better."

 

These people figured it out, BSA hasn't

 

One can start their research here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-H

 

GS/USA has a tad under 2,000,000 members and BSA has a tad over.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Stosh

[EmberMike]

One must get their facts straight here.  Your comment that the BSA is the best might not hold water and of course one is entitled to their own subjective opinions.

 

 

I did say my opinion was biased. 

 

 

Let's back up and take a serious look. 4-H predates back to the late 1800's when talk about the need for youth development first began.  By 1902 there were various "4-H Clubs" popping up...

 

I admittedly know very little about 4-H, and I did not know they were that large. From the 10 minutes of research I just did, I'm not sure they adequately compare to the BSA, though, at least not in my area where it looks like my kids would only have the option of joining a 4-H Lego club or an Environmental club. Looking at their website, however, it does look like 4-H has a more outdoor-focused program elsewhere in the country. Whether it really compares to the outdoor adventure type of focus the BSA has, however, I'm not sure.